Uber Powerful Scarlet Witch vs Insanity Genis-Vell

Originally posted by illadelph12
Untrue. 👇

Jean's physical form has been killed and manipulated on various occasions. Mad Jim Jasper's would **** Jean up. Xorn gave her a stroke in combat, and he's no where near as potent as Jasper's is.

All canon. Jean is susceptible. Forcing her back into the Phoenix Egg constitutes a victory.

She's susceptible to their powers whether you like it or not.

She was susceptible to Xorneto due to plot device. Her bio states she can give herself any level of durability she wishes or give herself any power. The woman can ressurrect herself straight away if she wishes. The womans the greatest telepathic force in Marvel. With that in mind her death at Xornetos hands wasnt due to weakness or a susceptibility because it is within her abilities to make herself above all forms of harm.

Forcing her back into the Phoenix egg does not constitute a victory if it is within Jeans ability to bring herself back. Please read the rules.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And another thing, Jean's telekinetic "re-writing" of a universe's timeline that you trump as a major feat was simply Jean manipulating Scott's past thoughts from the White Hot Room to head off a divergent future timeline, she didn't change the universe electron by electron. 👇

Completely untrue. Jean amputated the Here comes tomorrow future timeline effectively dooming the 616 universe. With no future it was left in a static state, she'd orphaned it by cutting it away from the rest of the multiverse. She was advised to grow the universe a new future. She is then told by the Phoenix Consciousness that telekinetic control of all of those atoms isnt easy even for the White Crown Phoenix. The scene shows atoms appearing in the palm of her hand, slowly forming over the panels into what is stated to be the "badly wounded orphan universe. " She reformed it in the palm of her hand atom by atom hence the Phoenix conssciousness' reference and the on panel depiction of it slowly coming tigether in her palm. She then grows the universe a new future by psionically reaching into said universe and changing Scotts reaction to Emma, hence changing history. If you want scans i'll happily provide them. 😉

Originally posted by illadelph12
And you know your essays won't shut me up, I'll always find a hole to slap your girl, my friend. Do you really want to do this [b]again? We're better as allies than as opponents. [/B]

We're still allies, that doesnt mean we have to agree on everything does it. 😄

I'll be back later. I look forward to your reply. 😉

She was susceptible to Xorneto due to plot device. Her bio states she can give herself any level of durability she wishes or give herself any power. The woman can ressurrect herself straight away if she wishes. The womans the greatest telepathic force in Marvel. With that in mind her death at Xornetos hands wasnt due to weakness or a susceptibility because it is within her abilities to make herself above all forms of harm.

Forcing her back into the Phoenix egg does not constitute a victory if it is within Jeans ability to bring herself back. Please read the rules.

Firstly, I've read and am well versed with the forum rules. Forcing Jean into the egg is like killing Doomsday. Sure, they can come back, but you still defeated them.

Secondly, Jean's physical being is the limitation on her Phoenix abilities. She can be defeated, she doesn't always embody "godlike" perceptions or actions, and she's emotionally imabalanced.

Herego, she is susceptible.

And yeah, it's best that we don't always see eye to eye. There's always a need for worthy opposition.

She influenced Cyclop's mind so that a divergent future timeline wouldn't come to pass. Bishop and Cable have done the same thing without telepathy. They used a time machine.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Firstly, I've read and am well versed with the forum rules. Forcing Jean into the egg is like killing Doomsday. Sure, they can come back, but you still defeated them.

Secondly, Jean's physical being is the limitation on her Phoenix abilities. She can be defeated, she doesn't always embody "godlike" perceptions or actions, and she's emotionally imabalanced.

Herego, she is susceptible.

Youre correct. Her human form can be the limitation to her abilities, however said form can still endow itself with any power and manipulate any energies in any amount. On top of that said form can transform into the hawk like energy form at will and has access to the Phoenix Consciousness which can guide it or take over its form if need be. All as stated on panel.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And yeah, it's best that we don't always see eye to eye. There's always a need for worthy opposition.

Wouldnt have it any other way. There was purpose behind the goading. 😉

Originally posted by illadelph12
She influenced Cyclop's mind so that a divergent future timeline wouldn't come to pass. Bishop and Cable have done the same thing without telepathy. They used a time machine.

Thats what i said when i said she psionically reached into said universe she held in the palm of her hand and changed his reaction to Emma. That was after having materialised said universe in the palm of her telekinetically as depicted on panel.

Forcing Jean back into the egg (presuming Wanda could do it or is given the chance to do it) would not kill Jean and as Jean is capable of returning under her own power then it does NOT constitute as a win.

Thats what i said when i said she psionically reached into said universe she held in the palm of her hand and changed his reaction to Emma. That was after having materialised said universe in the palm of her telekinetically as depicted on panel.

And?

They used an unnecessarily grandiose image to depict Jean mentally manipulating Cyclops's feelings for Emma to avert a future disaster caused by Scott. That's all she did. She didn't re-create the universe, she mentally manipulated Scott at a past junction to head off a possible divergent future based on his actions.

Originally posted by illadelph12
And?

They used an unnecessarily grandiose image to depict Jean mentally manipulating Cyclops's feelings for Emma to avert a future disaster caused by Scott. That's all she did. She didn't re-create the universe, she mentally manipulated Scott at a past junction to head off a possible divergent future.

Nope. The Phoenix Consciousness said that telekinetically controlling all of those atoms would not be easy even for the white crown Phoenix. The on panel depiction then depicts the 616 universe slowly coming together in the palm of her hand.

Altering Cyclops feelings has nothing to do with telekinetic manipulation of atoms and im quite sure that wouldnt be a struggle for the Phoenix. 😉

The growing of a new future, the bit youre talking about was depicted a page later in the famous "Live Scott, Live" scene.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Forcing Jean back into the egg (presuming Wanda could do it or is given the chance to do it) would not kill Jean and as Jean is capable of returning under her own power then it does NOT constitute as a win.

Death is death.

Doomsday, Hulk, Wolverine, Deathstroke, etc can all be "killed" and resurrect themselves under their own power.

Forcing Jean to return to the egg equals defeating her.

Xorn provided the blueprint to defeating her. Plot device be damned. The whole premise of comic books is plots and plot devices.

She wears a glass crown. Wanda and Jim Jaspers have the tools to take it off of her head. 👇

[You can post more Beyonce pics though.]

Originally posted by illadelph12
Death is death.

Doomsday, Hulk, Wolverine, Deathstroke, etc can all be "killed" and resurrect themselves under their own power.

Forcing Jean to return to the egg equals defeating her.

Xorn provided the blueprint to defeating her. Plot device be damned. The whole premise of comic books is plots and plot devices.

She wears a glass crown. Wanda and Jim Jaspers have the tools to take it off of her head. 👇

[You can post more Beyonce pics though.]

Ending Jeans physical form doesnt equate to her death. When Hulk cracked open and the heroes destroyed Onslaughts physical form he was NOT killed.

Youre still presuming that Wanda could end it. As it is within Jeans abilities as stated to render herself totally indestructible then i really cant see that working.

I'll be back. Keep it coming.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ending Jeans physical form doesnt equate to her death. When Hulk cracked open and the heroes destroyed Onslaughts physical form he was NOT killed.

Youre still presuming that Wanda could end it. As it is within Jeans abilities as stated to render herself totally indestructible then i really cant see that working.

It's within her abilities, but it's not always the case. It's possible for her to render herself indestructible, just like it's possible for Hulk to attain 'unlimited strength' or for Apocalypse to grant himself any physical ability.

The evidence in the comics proves otherwise on all 3 counts.

Jean dies and has emotional breakdowns. 👇
Hulk gets overpowered and 3 hitter quitter'd. 👇
Apocalypse jobs and is scared of tables. :down

You can't champion the use of canon material in debates, then pick and choose which instances you wish to accept to bolster your own argument.

That's hypocrisy at it's most blatant.

Per canon continuity, a planetary level emp will cause Jean a severe stroke and kill her, forcing her back into her egg. It's possible, hell, it's already happened, meaning against Jim Jaspers or Wanda, it's a viable, and formidable, option, among many others.

Jean/Phoenix is physically vulnerable. 👇

She wears a glass crown. 👇

I'm going on my lunch break. Be back in a few.

I don't know why are you arguing on Phoenix, I mean Phoenix really cannot be beaten, if she choses so, nothinf can really be done to her, if she choses so.

Phoenix Force, no, can't be completely beaten.

The physical manifestation it embodies into reality (Jean, other hosts) can and have gotten their asses kicked on more than one occasion.

Look up the "Anti-Phoenix" and "Goblin Force".

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's within her abilities, but it's not always the case. It's possible for her to render herself indestructible, just like it's possible for Hulk to attain 'unlimited strength' or for Apocalypse to grant himself any physical ability.

The evidence in the comics proves otherwise on all 3 counts.

It is possible for her to do all those things, thats what ive been stating all throughout this thread , so im confused as to why you felt the need to reiterate my previous points to me. 😕

The fact of the matter is that Phoenix is a cosmic being, she is totally indestructible in essence and can extend this feature to her physical form. The fact that she has bolstered her durability many a time in the comics to bathe in supernovas, laugh off herald level attacks (and even Rachel has laughed off Galactus' offence) and yet chose to kneel down beside Xorneto (please bear in mind her telepathy) and take a blast from Xorneto? PIS. Her death was telegraphed over a year before it happened and she said she had work to do elsewhere and wouldnt be long for this reality (616). Regardless of whether you think im a hypocrite (something i greatly dispute!! 😉 ) or not you cannot deny that was PIS.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean dies and has emotional breakdowns.
Hulk gets overpowered and 3 hitter quitter'd.
Apocalypse jobs and is scared of tables.

Hulk and Apocalypse arent cosmic beings who can materialize their desires with a thought. Irrelevant comparison.

Wanda can die and has had many an emotional breakdown too. Youre forgetting that she is a mentally disturbed human. Whats your point? As stated and shown on panel Jean can forsake her humanity by reverting to energy form or by allowing the consciousness to take over. Youre continually ignoring that point and restating the same old point over and over. Its an option that is open to Jean, please acknowledge that. Its something shes done on panel before and the fact that she can so easily do these things but for some reason decides not to allowing herself to be killed is again PIS.

Originally posted by illadelph12
You can't champion the use of canon material in debates, then pick and choose which instances you wish to accept to bolster your own argument.

That's hypocrisy at it's most blatant.

Pot calling the kettle black im afraid Ill. 😉

In canon material Jean can make herself indestructible, she can let the Phoenix Consciousness take over and direct her actions, if her physical body is mortally wounded or damaged to an extent which should prove fatal for a human body Jean can and has kept it alive from the brink of death and wished away the injuries (New X-men 148, Endsong). Im looking at the canon instances where all thats occurred and then looking at her "deaths" and saying in light of all of that if Jean didnt want to die then she wouldnt have, if Jean hadnt erected her psychic circuit breakers she wouldnt have been susceptible to Mastermind (a point thats made clear in her bios). Phoenix has never been killed in an instance devoid of PIS. The first time was self inflicted, the second time she had work to do elsewhere and so allowed herself to be killed as per the will of the Phoenix Consciousness.

Despite all of that canon material at hand to reference what youre doing is simply ignoring all of that and saying no it just shows shes susceptible. 😕

Originally posted by illadelph12
Per [b]canon continuity, a planetary level emp will cause Jean a severe stroke and kill her, forcing her back into her egg. It's possible, hell, it's already happened, meaning against Jim Jaspers or Wanda, it's a viable, and formidable, option, among many others.[/B]

In canon continuity a planetary level emp HAS killed her. Youre wording makes it sound like the limit of Phoenixes durability is an offensive from Xorneto.❌

Canon continuity has shown and stated that is conclusively NOT the case. Canon continuity has shown her laugh off far more, canon continuity states she can have any durability she desires, canon continuity shows that Jean can have her heart gouged out on several instances and yet still stay alive and dismiss the injuries. Why? Because she wanted to. 😄

Whats this talk of forcing Jean back into the egg? Dont know where you got that impression, but that doesnt happen in the event of her death. Jean has "died" many a time and just got back up seconds later. The egg is something that is derived from the Crown, it is how Phoenix manifests back into reality when she has work to do and as such its not a process Wanda has any control over. 😱

Originally posted by illadelph12
Jean/Phoenix is [b]physically vulnerable. [/B]

Nope. Jean is vulnerable if she chooses to be. Being indestructible is an option open to her and given that shes going into battle and both characters would have basic knowledge of each other as per forum rules its something she would do. Theres nothing Wanda could do to kill her if she decided she didnt want to die.

Originally posted by illadelph12
She wears a glass crown.

Uh-huh 😉

Im thinking its still solid:

I love you GS...........

well the beyonce pics.............drool

Originally posted by illadelph12
Phoenix Force, no, can't be completely beaten.

The physical manifestation it embodies into reality (Jean, other hosts) can and have gotten their asses kicked on more than one occasion.

Look up the "Anti-Phoenix" and "Goblin Force".

The physical manifestation, the true avatar Jean has never been beaten due to matters beyond her control or abilities. As shown on panel if Jean doesnt want to die then she will not die.

The Anti Phoenix had the upper hand in a battle with Rachel before she owned him. Rachel is a host not an avatar in the true sense of the word, she is NOT Jean and as stated on panel is far below her mother in power (as per the will of the Phoenix can only access its power in very limited amounts.) A comparison between Jean and Rachel therefore is irrelevant. Theyre two different beings with very different capabilities. Please understand that.

As for the Goblin Force, it defeated and absorbed the Phoenix of its universe. We know nothing of the circumstances behind that occurrence, we know nothing of that Phoenix manifestation. We know it wasnt destroyed or wholly absorbed because life still existed in that reality. Either way, whats the relevance? Wanda is NOT the late Goblin Force. Her conclusive feats dont even place her beyond the cube beings (planetary level reality warping with the potential for universal level) and they are regarded as minor omnipotents.

Please dont forget that if Phoenix wished to endow herself with reality warping abilities, then she very well could according to her bio. However she could operate on a far greater scale. 😄

the way i look at it, its not a matter of speculation, the fact that Jean is quote, un-quote "dead" right now pretty much proves that her physical frame can be and have been destroyed..the PF is something different entirely "that" is what cant be defeated the PF. no matter who the host is they are suseptible, if Jean as Phoenix was so infallible and impervious then Jason Wyngrade wouldnt have been able to mind f **** her the way he did...as phoenix! remeber she even sacrificed her body during that shiar incident just so that the PF could be without a host and the universe saved...key words her body

I wouldnt really go out on a limb and say that Wanda is taking her down anytime soon, but afterall this is Wanda vs Genis...and even then I wouldnt count her out either.all the things she did, she DID do it...its not like anybody is making up powers for her, and the fact that thier really hasnt been any side quests or elseworld-esque adventures for the avengers everything she has done is basically canon material. and i echo ill's sentiment about her body reacting to protect itslef. cuz remeber she was being tutored in magic by strange, and she was taking magic very seriously, and was using it in battles, but when the Sqaudron supreme showed up and started owning.. her natural abilites just kicked in and went to work altering probailtes left and right. so who knows perhaps she could short out jeans powers or the very least separte her from the force. and as far as im concerned separtating someone from the field of play does count as a victory. it doesnt matter if they can come back at will or not.

BTW its best to leave Jim Jaspers out of this cuz he could take on Anybody any day...that guy is basically a super intelligent full powered molecule man, with an insanity driven imagination(which is the most dangerous kind). he doesnt mess with probabilties he warps reality....on a cosmic scale, and he has shown to do this by the way just in case anyone wants to dispute, and it took the destruction of his entire reality to do him in. while im certain Phoenix has that power Jean's physical frame wouldnt be able to draw up on all that energy in a reasnable amount of time, plenty of time of Jaspers to mess her up in ways yet imagined,

back to wanda and genis she has shown to warp an entire universe...i believe the whole universe was afftected, not just earth cuz if not Saturnyne wouldnt have threatened to destroy all of 616 in HOM to protect the omniverse from its wayward energies, cuz thats what she does being the omniversal majextrix and all so if it was only earth i dont think wanda would pose a threat to literally all there is...Genis is a guy who is shown to be a veritable god, but not a god, god.. tho he has some impressive feats he can take wanda in her reg. incarnation when she's bat shit insane and extremely powerful i dont know