Oscillating Universe........

I was watching one of the graphicly revamped episodes of Cosmos today and got me thinking about this subject again...... so I did a little reading.

the idea was the rage in the scientific community 40 years ago......only to fall out of favor........only to be revived again a few years ago by theoretical physicists who now have theories to circumvent the problems found 40 years ago when the idea fell out of favor. (yes, I'm intentionally dumbing this up...making it as easily understandable and laymen friendly as possible)..........

for those unfamiliar....

The oscillating universe theory suggests that our universe began from the big bang......which will cause it to expand outward until the mass of the matter contained therein gravitational pull becomes stronger than the momentum of the mass as it slows down......pulling everything back together again to end in a big crunch. From that big crunch, a huge explosion....another big bang sending matter on it's merry way again for several billion more years until once again the momentum of the mass slows enough so that the gravitational pull becomes stronger and pulls it all back together again.....wash, rinse, repeat. An infinite cycle of universes....created, destroyed, created, destroyed every several billion years.

what do you guys think about the subject? I find it much easier to believe (even if it's only because I WANT to) than a simple big bang.....which results in matter expanding into infinity....until all stars die......all matter decomposes.....and only a void remains. I also believe it simply "fits" better with what we already know about nature.....natural cycles.......everything from weather patterns to reproduction of life to celestial revolutions happens in cycles. It doesn't lend any more creedence to the theory........I just like everything to be pretty much uniform.

I post this in the philosophy forum because it does have philosophical implications. If this theory were true, it would mean a closed universe....the same amount of matter would release the same amount of energy each time (neither can be destoyed)......producing the same amount of mass meaning the universe would start to collapse at the same point each time.....producing an actual edge to the universe, an end...a limit.

With a limited universe, this could mean that our entire universe......as hard as it is to fathom it's grandeur to us humans could be nothing more than one single electron in another larger universe......which in turn could be nothing more than a single electron in a larger universe...on to infinity. This ofcourse means that every electron in existence in our universe could be an entire universe unto itself.

That's the stuff philosophy is made for. As for our position, relative to all this, it is impossible for us humans to ever know a universe existing beyond our own on this infinite scale.....larger or smaller. Just something to think about........Men in Black style.

PS. for all you religious nuts.......this wouldn't change anything. No matter how many times our universe has expanded/collapsed, the energy to bring it into existence the very first time would still be un-explained........there's your god-out.

what do you guys think about the subject? I find it much easier to believe (even if it's only because I WANT to) than a simple big bang.....which results in matter expanding into infinity....until all stars die......all matter decomposes.....and only a void remains. I also believe it simply "fits" better with what we already know about nature.....natural cycles.......everything from weather patterns to reproduction of life to celestial revolutions happens in cycles. It doesn't lend any more creedence to the theory........I just like everything to be pretty much uniform.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I tend to agree that this would make more since since the Big Bang has holes in it's theory....It is interesting for the universe to react in this way. What if other universes also react in the same fashion.........Maybe it would better explain things such as black holes.
Also there could be universes inside universes, even on a micro type scale....

You just like anything that is oscillating. 😆 💃

You better not ruin his thread, he's gonna yell at you........ 😱

Hmmmmmmm yes, oscillating.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You just like anything that is oscillating. 😆 💃

Oh, mama... 😂

The idea of the Oscillating universe was nice up until 6 or 7 years ago, but then the accelerating expansion of the universe was discovered. Assuming that is really happening, dere ain't gonna be no oscillations.

Of course, there is accelerating expansion... naughty

Evil Dead > yeah, I really liked that fractal universe idea...utterly mind-blowing.

Well, as Minship points out there is one big problem with the oscillating Universe.
Namely "dark energy", the force that drives the Universe to not only expand but to do so at an ever increasing rate. It's like someone hit the gas-pedal with no stop-sign in sight.

The oscillating Universe theory sounds appealing. But really explains nothing.

All the evidence is there to support the Big Bang, that’s not the problem – the problem is, that we still do not understand gravity completely (but that’s another story). And the oscillating Universe does not explain what happened from 00:00 to 0,0000000000000000000000000000000001 second after Big Bang. Which is what we need quantum gravity (gravity described at the smallest scales we know) for.
The “Where did all matter and energy” come from is not explained by the oscillating Universe, it just pushes the problem “back in time.”
Heck, it will actually be harder to explain, seeing that quantum events CAN explain the creation of matter/energy from NOTHING, but not an oscillation like this.

Originally posted by The Omega
Well, as Minship points out there is one big problem with the oscillating Universe.
Namely "dark energy", the force that drives the Universe to not only expand but to do so at an ever increasing rate. It's like someone hit the gas-pedal with no stop-sign in sight.

The oscillating Universe theory sounds appealing. But really explains nothing.

All the evidence is there to support the Big Bang, that’s not the problem – the problem is, that we still do not understand gravity completely (but that’s another story). And the oscillating Universe does not explain what happened from 00:00 to 0,0000000000000000000000000000000001 second after Big Bang. Which is what we need quantum gravity (gravity described at the smallest scales we know) for.
The “Where did all matter and energy” come from is not explained by the oscillating Universe, it just pushes the problem “back in time.”
Heck, it will actually be harder to explain, seeing that quantum events CAN explain the creation of matter/energy from NOTHING, but not an oscillation like this.

Im´too tired to write so I´m agreeing with her... that basically resumes what I think. 😄

Originally posted by The Omega

Heck, it will actually be harder to explain, seeing that quantum events CAN explain the creation of matter/energy from NOTHING, but not an oscillation like this.

Really? Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Really? Can you elaborate?

Sure: The entire basis is TIME.
If you wait long enough the improbable will happen.
If you wait forever the impossible will happen.
Both statements are based on the concept of TIME – and time is intrinsically linked to energy (which again is linked to matter). For any CHANGE to take place you need time.
Both space AND time began at 00:00 Universe time, that is, at Big bang.
You can’t even talk about “before” Big Bang, because “before” is a causal relationship.
Quantum mechanics (and Heisenberg) tells us, that we’re allowed to break the law of conservation of energy if we do it in a short time-interval. Again, TIME.
Matter and energy can’t be created or destroyed, that’s the law of energy-conservation.
But again, when you have NO time, not only CAN the impossible happen instantly (or whatever word is needed there, “instantly” again depends on time), without TIME there is nothing to keep us from breaking both the law of energy-conservation and create energy/matter from nothing – because there IS no time, hence “short time-interval” has no meaning.

Originally posted by The Omega
If you wait long enough the improbable will happen.
If you wait forever the impossible will happen.

Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'impossible' that I wasn't previously aware of.

I mean, I have heard it before, but that cannot actually be true, can it?

wow, this is fascinating, i wish i had something to add....

All the evidence is there to support the Big Bang, that’s not the problem – the problem is, that we still do not understand gravity completely (but that’s another story). And the oscillating Universe does not explain what happened from 00:00 to 0,0000000000000000000000000000000001 second after Big Bang. Which is what we need quantum gravity (gravity described at the smallest scales we know) for.
The “Where did all matter and energy” come from is not explained by the oscillating Universe, it just pushes the problem “back in time.”
Heck, it will actually be harder to explain, seeing that quantum events CAN explain the creation of matter/energy from NOTHING, but not an oscillation like this.

gravitational problems aside........ how would the oscillation theory in regards to matter/energy be any different from any other big bang theory? Okay.....they are created from nothing once, and only once.......they expand then collapse to bang again, forcing the very same energy to propell the very same matter into expansion again.........matter and energy were still created once, never to be destroyed.......

I find talk of infinite space and universes to be so mind boggling that when I think about it I start feeling miniscule and irrelevant. So I squash a bug.

It's fascinating though, I want to travel through space and see other dimensions and all of that, it's just too big.

Originally posted by The Omega
Sure: The entire basis is TIME.
If you wait long enough the improbable will happen.
If you wait forever the impossible will happen.
Both statements are based on the concept of TIME – and time is intrinsically linked to energy (which again is linked to matter). For any CHANGE to take place you need time.
Both space AND time began at 00:00 Universe time, that is, at Big bang.
You can’t even talk about “before” Big Bang, because “before” is a causal relationship.
Quantum mechanics (and Heisenberg) tells us, that we’re allowed to break the law of conservation of energy if we do it in a short time-interval. Again, TIME.
Matter and energy can’t be created or destroyed, that’s the law of energy-conservation.
But again, when you have NO time, not only CAN the impossible happen instantly (or whatever word is needed there, “instantly” again depends on time), without TIME there is nothing to keep us from breaking both the law of energy-conservation and create energy/matter from nothing – because there IS no time, hence “short time-interval” has no meaning.

Hrm, I dont quite understand. Besides the concept of unlimited time making the impossible...possible(which is new to me) I still dont see what could be the *prompt* to creation.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Hrm, I dont quite understand. Besides the concept of unlimited time making the impossible...possible(which is new to me) I still dont see what could be the *prompt* to creation.

That's just not true....the wording is totally wrong.

Nothing can make the impossible possible.

actually it's quite right. Something is deemed impossible by our natural laws, the laws of physics. If something occurs before the creation of our universe and it's natural laws, laws of physics and therefore does not fall subject to them then it is indeed possible..........yet impossible by the very standards set for "impossible".

Before our universe and it's laws existed, anything was possible........yet looking back now we can deem the very same occurances impossible because it would violate our current laws of physics........it's all in relativity. In this time and place it's impossible........in another place, before time......it is possible.

his wording was very correct.....as he did not attribute it to all time/space. The very same event can be possible yet impossible at the same time........depending on what space/time it is occuring. Try to drive a golf ball hard enough to send it in orbit around the planet. Impossible from our perspective, earth...........yet try it on another planet with a much weaker gravitational pull, very possible. Same occurance.....both possible and impossible, depending on the time/space.

What she said is mathematically correct, but in physics we must pay attention to the physical meaning of equations. After all, physics is not mathematics.

The equations will say that after an infinite amount of time the impossible can indeed happen, but physically there is no infinite amount of time. So physically the impossible cannot happen. We will never see an infinite amount of time.

For example... physics laws says that with an infinte amount of energy, an object that has mass can be at the light speed, and that is impossible accordingly to the same laws, but an object will never have infinite energy... you will never be capable to add infinite energy to something, you know, even if it was possible you would need infinite time to do it. Infinite time means that something will never happen. So, that is only an idealization not a physical event actually.

Of course you can always give try to give a different physical interpretation where infinite has some kind of physical meaning, but infinite in physics was never taken as having physical meaning. Infinite just indicates where an equation fails to make predictions. But as I said it is mathematically correct.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
actually it's quite right. Something is deemed impossible by our natural laws, the laws of physics. If something occurs before the creation of our universe and it's natural laws, laws of physics and therefore does not fall subject to them then it is indeed possible..........yet impossible by the very standards set for "impossible".

Before our universe and it's laws existed, anything was possible........yet looking back now we can deem the very same occurances impossible because it would violate our current laws of physics........it's all in relativity. In this time and place it's impossible........in another place, before time......it is possible.

his wording was very correct.....as he did not attribute it to all time/space. The very same event can be possible yet impossible at the same time........depending on what space/time it is occuring. Try to drive a golf ball hard enough to send it in orbit around the planet. Impossible from our perspective, earth...........yet try it on another planet with a much weaker gravitational pull, very possible. Same occurance.....both possible and impossible, depending on the time/space.

That's something else. The sentence just doesn't make sense. Something that is impossible WILL never happen. What someone actually says with it is that there is nothing impossible and that over an infinite amount of time everything will happen.

"Something Always Was." Period. It is that simple; in fact, it doesn't get any simpler, and Occam doesn't get any happier.

Originally posted by Mindship
"Something Always Was." Period. It is that simple; in fact, it doesn't get any simpler, and Occam doesn't get any happier.

What's up with everyon loving Occam's Razor lately...isn't one of the Theories that what we seem to perceive as "time" was only created with the Universe?