Originally posted by Punker69OK, lesson 101......Hell, sheol, only means death. Nothing more...
Explain.
Sheol (ùàåì) is the Hebrew language word denoting the "abode of the dead"; the "underworld", "the common grave of mankind" or "pit". It is also transliterated Sheh-ole, in Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries and Strong's Concordances. In the Hebrew Bible it is portrayed as a comfortless place beneath the earth, beyond gates, where both the bad and the good, slave and king, pious and wicked must go after death to sleep in silence and oblivion in the dust.
In some sources, for example in Deuteronomy 32:22, Sheol seems to be synonymous with the "depths of the earth". Sheol is sometimes compared to the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Hades or Tartarus from Greek mythology. Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead; the righteous Job sees it as his destination (Job 3). In the Book of Job, while Satan is portrayed as tormenting and testing the living, he does not appear to have any particular presidency over Sheol, or to dwell in Sheol.
Indeed, Sheol in many cases does not seem to be an afterlife destination or a location at all, but merely "the grave". In Ecclesiastes, for example, it is stated that "...the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten." and "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave [Sheol], where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (Ecc. 9:5-10, NIV)
Jacob, not comforted at the reported death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Genesis 37:35). Sheol may be personified: Sheol is never satiated (Proverbs 30:20); she "makes wide her soul," (Isaiah 5:14).
Psalm 18:
5 The breakers of death surged round about me; the menacing floods terrified me. 6 The cords of Sheol tightened; the snares of death lay in wait for me. 7 In my distress I called out: LORD! I cried out to my God. From his temple he heard my voice; my cry to him reached his ears.
Psalm 86:13: "Your love for me is great; you have rescued me from the depths of Sheol."
The Hebrew concept is paralleled in the Sumerian Netherworld to which Inanna descends. See also Ereshkigal..
The English word hell comes from Germanic mythology, now used in the Judeo-Christian sense to translate the Hebrew word "Gehinnom," which was a valley outside Jerusalem used for burning refuse (basically a landfill), and the Greek Hades and Tartarus.
The New Testament seems to draw a distinction between Sheol and "Gehinnom", or Gehenna (Jahannam in Islam). The most "hellish" notion in Jewish tradition is the Biblical word Gehinnom, later interpreted to refer to a place of condemnation. But the source of the word is most interesting. Gei Hinnom was the valley of Hinnom (Joshua 15:8, 18:16; II Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31; Nehemiah 11:30), a place where children were sacrificed to the Canaanite god Moloch. In Islam, this same word became Jahannam, an Islamic term for Hell.
This contradiction is why I let go my belief in it.
I look at it this way:
1) You say that all you have to do is ask Jesus and God to forgive you and that's it. You will go to Heaven, good as that. However there are Christians who claim that this is not enough. That you must live your life by the Bible, so much they try to live it WORD for WORD.....
Theres too many intepretations and religious groups that CLAIM they know the RIGHT WAY
It's too confusing, I'd rather use my time in other ways that might actually help people and help benefit my own life and happiness than to waste my time deciding which religion to choose.
2) If there is a Hell, then Hitler is going there. It's total BS to accept that maybe before he died he asked Jesus to forgive him, and then ALL IS WELL.....its okay Hitler. I forgive you for MURDERING TORTURING and trying to ERASE millions of the human beings i created just for your own personal sadistic tendencies....its okay my son, you're forgiving.
GET THE #$@$ OUTTA HERE.....
Then anyone can HURT anyone else all they want and they go to Heaven if they just say "forgive me Christ"...whatever,,,,
NICE TRY..i dont buy it
3) If there is a Heaven, then whose going there? Only a SELECT FEW? Only those who beleive ? What about the GOOD people in this world who just dont beleive in Christ.....they exist people.
Some people who dont beleive in Jesus are actually better human beings than those who DO beleive in Jesus.
Who goes to Heaven then ?
My take on it: Who cares.....EARTH is all we know to exist,....instead of worrying about where we are going to go when we DIE, lets try to fix our LIVES and make our LIVES better.
4) SIN....what is it really?
Is it SIMPLY defying God?
I thnk SIN..REAL EVIL...is simply the desire to HURT another person.
I think EVIL comes in three forms: Torture, Control, and Murder......
As long as it is NOT your objective to control, torment or kill another being, then you are fine. You are a good person if you dont try to do any of these things, and you have nothing to worry about.
I don't beleive in Hell or Heaven though. They may exist..maybe....but until i know, i am only going to focus on LIFE.
i want to be a good person....not a good christian.....a good PERSON....i want to have fun in this life, SAVOR this world, and spread as much LOVE as i possibly can.
F@$%#@ Religion. Let's CREATE PEACE and JOY for REAL.....
Originally posted by debbiejo
OK, lesson 101......Hell, sheol, only means death. Nothing more...Sheol (ùàåì) is the Hebrew language word denoting the "abode of the dead"; the "underworld", "the common grave of mankind" or "pit". It is also transliterated Sheh-ole, in Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries and Strong's Concordances. In the Hebrew Bible it is portrayed as a comfortless place beneath the earth, beyond gates, where both the bad and the good, slave and king,
All are characteristics of heal.
Originally posted by debbiejo
In some sources, for example in Deuteronomy 32:22, Sheol seems to be synonymous with the "depths of the earth". Sheol is sometimes compared to the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Hades or Tartarus from Greek mythology. Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead; the righteous Job sees it as his destination (Job 3). In the Book of Job, while Satan is portrayed as tormenting and testing the living, he does not appear to have any particular presidency over Sheol, or to dwell in Sheol.[QUOTE=6532557]Originally posted by debbiejo
[B]Depths of the earth. I believe hell is in the depths of the earth. It is mentioned in Psalms.
I could care less about Mythology. Show me scripture.
I said that it was a place for the christians and non-christians. A place where both go until the people in hell are judged and get cast into the lake of fire and where the people that were Christians and live in paradise go to heaven when Christ died for their sins.
[QUOTE=6532557]Originally posted by debbiejo
[B]Indeed, Sheol in many cases does not seem to be an afterlife destination or a location at all, but merely "the grave". In Ecclesiastes, for example, it is stated that "...the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten." and "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave [Sheol], where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (Ecc. 9:5-10, NIV)
Lets take a look at Luke 16:22-26
23"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "
So the rich man was IN HELL and he was being tormented.
24"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. "
Also another indication that the DEAD man was being tormented in the flame.
25"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. "
Another indication of tormenting.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Another indication of the the people that didn't know christ being engulfed in a "flaming fire". Does that sound like they're completely gone to you?
They also shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the prescence of the Lord.
Revelation 20:10-15
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever . And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great , stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them : and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire . This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire ."
First we understand that the Lake of Fire is a place of torment FOR EVER AND EVER.
Then we see that the dead, small and great are going to stand before God and be judged.
The sea if also going to give up the dead.
And then we see that the Death and HELL are going to be cast into the lake of fire which we know from the beginning of the scripture is a place of eternal torment.
Also whoever is not found written in the book of life is going to be cast into the Lake of fire.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Jacob, not comforted at the reported death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Genesis 37:35). Sheol may be personified: Sheol is never satiated (Proverbs 30:20); she "makes wide her soul," (Isaiah 5:14).
I never said hell wasn't a place of death.
Whatever....
BOTTOM LINE IS THIS....the largest religious CONTRADICTION
You cannot LOVE someone who you think deserves to go to Hell.....
That is no love at all. A loving God cannot be this way, and a loving Christian/Jew/Muslim cannot be this way either.
Thinking that someone deserves to go to Hell for whatever choices they make is a opinion based on Hatred, not on Love.
Would you ever send your own children to Hell ?
I can't beleive you guys don't SEE THAT
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You cannot LOVE someone who you think deserves to go to Hell.....
I think that would in fact be a great love. I dont think anybody deserves to go to hell. That aside, it is a place unbelievers will go if they dont offer up repentence., and baptism for the cleansing of sins.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That is no love at all. A loving God cannot be this way, and a loving Christian/Jew/Muslim cannot be this way either.
Again your ways or thoughts are not like Gods. Also, God loved sinners and the lost so much that he became manifested in flesh and died for our sins that we may get to know him. He's warned unbelievers in his word time and time again of the fate that awaits them if they continue to be ignorant to his word. Their own ignorance will lead them to their own doom.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thinking that someone deserves to go to Hell for whatever choices they make is a opinion based on Hatred, not on Love.
Based on principles asserted in the word of God.
Let's put aside our own intepretations anf beleifs in God for a second....
Obviously that debate will go no where. You are nearly zealot in your beleif of God, and your beleifs in God are ALL you know......
And I used to beleive in God until i WOKE UP and realized what hypocrisy the bible, religion, and religious people in general preach
.....so just our own logic at wits here...........
You don't love someone when you think they are going to Hell.
You ESPECIALLY do not love someone when you think they DESERVE to go to Hell.
That is hatred.
Hell is a place of eternal torment....only a being of hate would CREATE such a place, much less BELEIVE in one.
You're 15. You probably ONLY know what your parents and freinds tell you. You probably know a LOT about Scripture and Bible Doctrine, which is fine, but it is only ONE source of knowledge. You are not aware of the other truths and possiblities that exist in the outside world other than your own closed outlook.
You are close minded and therefore un open to the possiblities that you may be wrong...therefore to debate with you is meaningless.
I had an interesting time debating with you, but there's no point in it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You don't love someone when you think they are going to Hell.
Yes, you do. That is a very shallow and in ignorant statement
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You ESPECIALLY do not love someone when you think they DESERVE to go to Hell.That is hatred.
True.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Hell is a place of eternal torment....only a being of hate would CREATE such a place, much less BELEIVE in one.
Opinion and belief.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You're 15. You probably ONLY know what your parents and freinds tell you.
No, your generalizing me because im a Christian teenager with a Christian heritage. I've found out alot by myself.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B] You probably know a LOT about Scripture and Bible Doctrine, which is fine, but it is only ONE source of knowledge. You are not aware of the other truths and possiblities that exist in the outside world other than your own closed outlook [B]
Another ignorant statement based on generalizing me by two facts about my life that i've given you.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]You are close minded and therefore un open to the possiblities that you may be wrong...therefore to debate with you is meaningless. [B]
Im not close-minded but im not going to disown my beliefs and what I know and understand to be true because someone line offers something different.
Yes, you do. That is a very shallow and in ignorant statement
Explain to me how that is shallow and ignorant? The very fact that you beleive in Hell just shows what kind of mentality you have. A being of pure love does not imagine this for anyone.
Opinion and belief.
Like your religion.
No, your generalizing me because im a Christian teenager with a Christian heritage. I've found out alot by myself.
Excuse me. I grew up Christian, I went to Catholic School all my life. My family is Christian. I am generalizing no one.
You obviously have not found enough, you have probably only find what you needed to support your beleifs, and disregarded everything else.
Another ignorant statement based on generalizing me by two facts about my life that i've given you.
All you do is shove scripture in my face, and you expect me to give in? I don't beleive in the Bible, so you cannot convince me of anything.
If you can only argue by the Bible to someone who does not beleive the Bible, then what kind of successful argument will you have ?
You have not made any points outside of Theology, you have not presented anything from your own life (atleast not to me) to back up why you beleive what you beleive.
You have only shoved quotes and lines down my throat, and i am telling you, i dont buy it.
It's not ignorance, much of what you say I ALREADY KNOW....hearing it a second time is not going to convince me of anything.
If you learned a lot on your own, then speak to me with examples of your life experiences, dont present me with quotes from the Bible that im already familiar with.
Im not close-minded but im not going to disown my beliefs and what I know and understand to be true because someone line offers something different.
You are close minded because you believe that your beleifs are the only way...end of story. I am atleast open to the possibility that i MAY be wrong, and i do not claim to know God...i never sed he/she does or does not exist.
ALSO you only argue from the bible...ONE source of info...you have not presented to me anything i can relate to as a human to human argument. SHOW me that you know more than just the scriptures...show me that you have exposed yourself to LIFE...that you have spoken to people of all different backgrounds, beleifs and cultures more than once....than I'll consider that you MAY be open minded
I am not asking you to disown your religion AT ALL......
I have no right to ask that, you can beleive whatever you want. My point is you are not convincing me of anything, i do not beleive in God or the Bible, or in Hell...so i do not have to beleive the same thing you do is all.
If you think I am going to Hell, i am just going to say "thanks freind...you're a REAL swell guy..."
in the mean time, im just going to focus on being a GOOD PERSON....not a good Christian....a good PERSON.
LIFE is all taht matters to me, not religion.
Originally posted by Punker69
Didn't I answer your little question in my reply to Deb?Dont feel cocky because I didn't feel a need to reply to your arrogance.
No. No you didnt. You've never died and resurrected, so you can't say what happens after death. Period. Infact, it's YOU who is being arrogant, you who assume you know what happens after death. The truth is NOONE knows. What's certain is the body shuts down, what happens next is anybody's guess.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Explain to me how that is shallow and ignorant? The very fact that you beleive in Hell just shows what kind of mentality you have. A being of pure love does not imagine this for anyone.
I dont imagine it for anyone. I dont want anyone to go there. Quote me when I said I did.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Like your religion.
We were having a discussion about the Bible and hell. Dont take my quotes out of context.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Excuse me. I grew up Christian, I went to Catholic School all my life. My family is Christian. I am generalizing no one.You obviously have not found enough, you have probably only find what you needed to support your beleifs, and disregarded everything else.
Pentecostalism is a little bit different than Catholicism.
Despite the fact that I have a Christian family and go to church I still live in the same world you do. I'm around it all the time. I cant escape the influence of the world after I leave my home.
Again, your stereptyping me. Of oh what, I dont know.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
All you do is shove scripture in my face, and you expect me to give in? I don't beleive in the Bible, so you cannot convince me of anything.If you can only argue by the Bible to someone who does not beleive the Bible, then what kind of successful argument will you have ?
The fact that you posted in a religion forum tells you me that you wanted to have a religious conversation. Not a spin on morals.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have not made any points outside of Theology, you have not presented anything from your own life (atleast not to me) to back up why you beleive what you beleive.You have only shoved quotes and lines down my throat, and i am telling you, i dont buy it.
It's not ignorance, much of what you say I ALREADY KNOW....hearing it a second time is not going to convince me of anything.
If you learned a lot on your own, then speak to me with examples of your life experiences, dont present me with quotes from the Bible that im already familiar with.
Again, this is a religion form. I've posted about religion. And just answered questions. If you would like to discuss one's morals we should just end this conversation right now because neither of us will budge.
My experiences dont mean anything without relation to the word of God. Without that relation i'm just reminiscing of past experiences and that is pointless.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You are close minded because you believe that your beleifs are the only way...end of story. I am atleast open to the possibility that i MAY be wrong, and i do not claim to know God...i never sed he/she does or does not exist.ALSO you only argue from the bible...ONE source of info...you have not presented to me anything i can relate to as a human to human argument. SHOW me that you know more than just the scriptures...show me that you have exposed yourself to LIFE...that you have spoken to people of all different backgrounds, beleifs and cultures more than once....than I'll consider that you MAY be open minded
I am not asking you to disown your religion AT ALL......
I have no right to ask that, you can beleive whatever you want. My point is you are not convincing me of anything, i do not beleive in God or the Bible, or in Hell...so i do not have to beleive the same thing you do is all.
If you think I am going to Hell, i am just going to say "thanks freind...you're a REAL swell guy..."
in the mean time, im just going to focus on being a GOOD PERSON....not a good Christian....a good PERSON.
LIFE is all taht matters to me, not religion.
Im ending this discussion. Arguing about my morals is pointless or experiences is pointless and will us nowhere. If you seek to have a Biblical discussion than im just a pm away. Also I have nothing to prove to you. Your constant stereotyping is making me weary.
It's also funny how Punker69 just gives up. He cannot successfully attack any of my points. His religion is his right to have, but its ALL he seems to have. The Bible is ALL he can argue with, and he doesn't understand that not everyone beleives in it, even people who ARE familiar with it, and even people who were once Christian like he.
I know this is a Religion Forum, but non-religious people have the right to debate on it as well. I am very familiar with the Christian Faith, with Catholicism and New Born Christian beleifs from family, school, freinds and studies.
He just gave up.......All I asked him to do was LINK his Biblical arguments with REALITY and challenge himself to convince me that he is right.
Does he think that he can prove that someone is misunderstood when all he does is put out quotes?
Or is he simply trying to shed light on his beleifs.?..if so that is beautiful, but that is not debating.
He is right about one thing though: He is 100% convinced on his beliefs, and I am about 90% convinced about my own, and neither of us will budge in terms of our take on social morality....
That's too bad. He sound so intelligent, but he just surrendered. That could have to more interesting debate. oh well