The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Nephthys3,287 pages
Originally posted by DarthTheDominat
I already explained why you might have found it fun watching the movie. Should the movie and the people who made it be rewarded for filling the film with subconscious triggers and indicators that trick you into thinking the film is good? This has existed in movies, tv and videogames for years now. You can usually tell which by seeing which ones don't quite hold up upon closer examination and analysis.

Breaking News: Joss Whedon is really a supervillain taking over America by tricking everyone into thinking the Avengers is a good movie.

That diabolical bastard!

Originally posted by Tzeentch._
There's no such thing as "tricking someone into thinking something is good". If you think that something is good than it's good. Good is entirely subjective.
Not true.

Hurrr.

On the subject of the Avengers...

Whedon returns for Avengers 2 and set to develop a Marvel TV show!

**** yeah!

And then we have to wait like 3 years.

I wonder who they'll use for the TV show. Maybe they'll do a Thunderbolts show!

It'll probably be something like Heroes for Hire though.

DC >>>> Marvel

Let Nolan produce all DC adaptations from now on for a particular universe (while directing some of them himself) and then direct a Justice League movie.

Nolan would suck for a Justice League movie.

Well he wouldn't have to direct it maybe just produce it. However it feels right he has directed the Batman films and now he is producing Man of Steel. I heard that apparently they want him for Green Lantern as well.

BTW, I need a sig. Scythe has policy of only making it once you have 500 posts, so who would be next best person?

Ah, so that's who you are.

Originally posted by DarthTheDominat
Tony Stark maybe thanks to RDJ's great charisma and energy and the way the character is written. I thought the rest were pretty dull. Chris Hemsworth was truly the perfect guy to play Thor, but the character in general just doesn't really have a lot of personality. Loki was like a pantomime villain. Captain America was boring, had a good origin story and tragic romance in his movie but in this he was plain dull. Banner was boring, Hulk was what you would expect. SLJ is always badass but if anything being surrounded by these superheroes nullified that in this film. Hawkeye had no personality, Blakc Widow was okay I guess, pretty badass as a chick.

But yeah, I'd say only Tony Stark really actually had an interesting personality/character.

I have to agree with this. Many of the characters were merely one-liners with special powers and/or CGI masturbatory aid and the story itself was hardly compelling or sensible in retrospect. The Editing Room's rendition of the script and action is very accurate in addressing its stupidity in that regard, and the climax was disappointing (although I'm sure many people who liked The Avengers and also frequent this subforum are familiar with that line).

At the risk of testing my flame shield's ability to defend against Whedonites, I'm going to say that The Avengers was a decent superhero action movie, that it had some funny moments, and that Stark was incredibly awesome (but he was in his own movies, again, because RDJ is good at what he does), but it had the depth of a Jell-O Pudding cup. Loki and Thor were criminally underused, Hawkeye could have used more development, and Black Widow brought the equivalent of a slingshot to a space marine battle royale.

In short, I think it had serious opportunities, and everyone's dancing around that with terms like "Funny one-liners", "characterization, no wait - development - no wait, personal embodiment, etc." instead of owning up to its flaws. You can like a movie with flaws and still come out unscathed you know. Conan the Barbarian has same huge flaws. Terminator has some amazing logic flaws. Pirates of the Carribean lowers IQ in lab rats when combined with rum and low-calorie diet. But instead of glossing over it with semantics and word-play, it's important to realize that sometimes something is subjectively good, and objectively in need of rewriting/redoing to make it objectively good.

Like The Avengers.

Also:

Oh snap.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In short, I think it had serious opportunities, and everyone's dancing around that with terms like "Funny one-liners", "characterization, no wait - development - no wait, personal embodiment, etc." instead of owning up to its flaws.

I hope you're not talking about me, because I honestly think that you're wrong. I'm not dancing around anything, I think it's a fantastic movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh snap.

I hope you're not talking about me, because I honestly think that you're wrong. I'm not dancing around anything, I think it's a fantastic movie.

I'm talking in general, from hearing people elsewhere, in class, etc. It's not meant to be an indictment of anyone here. I would preface that, but I'm feeling spiteful because my arthritis is acting up.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

At the risk of testing my flame shield's ability to defend against Whedonites, I'm going to say that The Avengers was a decent superhero action movie, that it had some funny moments, and that Stark was incredibly awesome (but he was in his own movies, again, because RDJ is good at what he does), but it had the depth of a Jell-O Pudding cup. Loki and Thor were criminally underused, Hawkeye could have used more development, and Black Widow brought the equivalent of a slingshot to a space marine battle royale.


I'm not a Whedonite.

I did, however, enjoy the Avenger's film immensely. On that basis alone, I'd like to rebut the idea that the characters were shallow. In my mind, a shallow character is one without any sort of conflict or motivation behind its intentions. None of the Avengers qualify. Hawkeye, for all that his character was left unexplored, still faced the dissonance between being a loyal soldier and being compelled to murder his compatriots. By extension, Natasha was faced with the challenge of reining in a formerly trusted confidant. Her bluff against Loki regarding "debts" is fun to watch, and only possible because of the connection developed between these two characters.

Captain America faces a similar arc; he is alone after giving up his entire world for the sake of duty. Now that his loyalties have been appropriated by S.H.I.E.L.D. it is important for him to make sure that he is not being misled. As his suspicions are piqued, he has to choose between near-dogmatic loyalty to authority and following his own conscience. Watching naivety beaten out of a relic certainly isn't my idea of a pudding cup.

Originally posted by Zampanó
I'm not a Whedonite.

I did, however, enjoy the Avenger's film immensely. On that basis alone, I'd like to rebut the idea that the characters were shallow. In my mind, a shallow character is one without any sort of conflict or motivation behind its intentions. None of the Avengers qualify.

Given that you have written out a nice exact definition that can be applied to pretty much every movie character made (excepting the kind of Z-grade trash that is reviewed by Somethingawful.com), yeah, it's not surprising you contend this.

Hawkeye, for all that his character was left unexplored, still faced the dissonance between being a loyal soldier and being compelled to murder his compatriots.

Which was resolved in record time. Despite knowing nothing about the level of control employed by Loki, Hawkeye is brought back into the fold in the time it takes to boil an egg, and there's no real mention of this after. While it's true that the element of him having been controlled and working against his friends was experienced in the film, it's not entirely important that it was him in the first place. Unlike the scientist Cerdic, I mean Stellan Skarsgaard, Hawkeye's control had no real point and a quick resolution just in time for him to pose for the final showdown.

By extension, Natasha was faced with the challenge of reining in a formerly trusted confidant.

Meaning she kicked his ass, then he woke up later, they had a quick talk, and he was back on the good-guy roster. Again, this isn't masterful storytelling. If it is, then television series that employ the same concept (Stargate or Star Trek for example, mind control trope) are equally brilliant by extension. Wait, no that sounds silly.

Her bluff against Loki regarding "debts" is fun to watch, and only possible because of the connection developed between these two characters.

But ultimately fruitless. In fact, a large part of the weakness of the film in my eyes is the inability of Loki to directly threaten the Avengers or at least make them squirm like hell when he has the upperhand. After this scene (and Thor's drop from the heavens), Loki becomes useless. Considering everyone but Hawkeye and Black Widow could probably manhandle Loki in personal combat, and he doesn't actually outsmart any of them (but is in turn outsmarted by Stark and Cerdic, and then mercilessly beaten by Hulk) there's no real reason to feel drawn into the conflict.

To offer a comparison, the Joker or even Bane on some level puts Batman and his friends/allies through the wringer, testing the limits of their emotions, endurance, what-have-you. Loki, despite having an amazing actor behind him, ends up being the kind of whimpy Emperor Claudius wannabe with some magic powers that seem to fade from his grasp the moment he needs them to fend off the Avengers. You know, at least Emperor Claudius was smart enough to have other people killing Maximus' friends and allies before engaging the man in single combat after mortally wounding him; Loki stares at the Hulk who of all people he should know possesses the power to tear up anything with his bare hands and uses the power of sass.

You may disagree with my assertion on The Avenger's depth, but really, only if we're going by your literal definition of "having some point or motivation" as being depth, "using tropes that have no lasting impact on character development nor lead to subplots/arcs", and lastly "who cares if the villain is a complete pushover in the end, CGI". I may have added that last one myself.

Captain America faces a similar arc; he is alone after giving up his entire world for the sake of duty. Now that his loyalties have been appropriated by S.H.I.E.L.D. it is important for him to make sure that he is not being misled. As his suspicions are piqued, he has to choose between near-dogmatic loyalty to authority and following his own conscience. Watching naivety beaten out of a relic certainly isn't my idea of a pudding cup.

Read this and get back to me.

Ha! That was a funny script.

It's almost as funny as the one I wrote in the Prometheus thread. 😉

definition that can be applied to pretty much every movie character made

Palpatine: Wants to rule shit
Beckett: Wants to rule shit
Dumbledore: Objects to Voldemort ruling shit
Gimli/Legolas: Plot device to show inter-altitude bromance

Basically, stories excel on either the strength of their plot, or the strength of their characters. Avengers lacks a labyrinthine storyline, but its characters interact interestingly with one another.

[generic appeal about subjectivity in taste]

Originally posted by Zampanó
Gimli/Legolas: Plot device to show (gay) inter-altitude romance

Because gay.

Fixed.

I was just wondering.. The Jedi Knight from TOR, is canon-wise the strongest saber fighter?, whereas the Consular is the strongest with the force?

But how powerful are they really? I know the Consular has that super-dangerous ritual to perform like 4 times, and the Knight does go up against the Voice, which is imbued with the Emperor's power...

Do they stack up to Satele/Malgus/<Insert Badass TOR strong people here?