The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Stealth Moose3,287 pages
Originally posted by mstanford2912
Before I get to the entire argument (after the gym), I just want to address this. How many sides do you want to see exactly? And also, I hope you're familiar with the fact that 10-20 democrats voted for the goverment shutdown as well, further blurrying the lines.

Sides might not be appropriate as it's difficult to say most if not all politicians are on their "own side" or firmly aligned with their parties'. Viewpoints might be best. In America, we dumb down people as liberals or conservatives routinely and our politics reflects that. I'm strongly against the Tea Party but I was a card carrying Republican. Now, I find that the Republicans are corrupted by fundamentalist stupidity and the Democrats hover somewhere between lesser evil and outright incompetent.

I'm not sold on libertarians either though, so my best choice is to immigrate or hope that the Boss from the Third Street Saints gets elected.

Hey I'm right there with you. I don't support either party but I'm not biased enough to square the entire blame on one party for this mess. I don't even think the debt ceiling should be raised.

You're on a desert island. Two individuals control the means to acquire say, fishing hooks for the others. This wouldn't kill everyone to not have, but the lasting effects of its absence would eventually snowball. One individual who has the string required decides to hold them back until the person who makes the hooks agrees to their demands. These demands seek to counter previously agreed upon tribal/community legislation to improve conditions for perhaps 15 per cent of the island's population. At this point you could muddle the analogy further but let's keep it simple.

The string maker has threatened fishhook productions at the expense of preventing IslandCare. The hook maker refuses to cave into the demands because of the following reasons:

Ok, that was an interesting analogy... So lets look at potential outcomes here.

A. He refuses to cave in to the demands of the string maker and says "there will be no negotiations, I'd rather let the people starve".
Does he deserve equal blame? No, of course not. Does he deserve his fair share of the blame because he's now contributing to the problem and the people are suffering? Yes.

B. He doesn't cave in to the demands BUT he publicly acknowledges that he's going to the negotiation table. This makes the string maker look like a putz, and results in the people putting pressure on the string maker to the point where the string maker has no choice but drop his demands.

So by this kind of logic, Bush should have negotiated with the Taliban. Since even though he's being put to the screws to either sacrifice his keystone piece of legislation or government debt, it's somehow Obama's responsibility to "stop contrbuting" to his own Sophie's choice.

Sure, if you're going to apply a loose definition of "terrorist" like a few others have before you, this kind of logic works. Completely different situations, no matter how much you want to bunch them up.

I think it's ethically irresponsible for a president - any president - to maim already passed laws (and basically undo his job in the first place) because the other side intends to use public credit and default as leverage. I'm not saying I want the country to default; as it is, the reprocussions may be severe. No, I'm saying I don't fault the president for refusing to bow to Republican blackmail. What they're doing is reprehensible and it should not be rewarded. If the government defaults, the Republican party basically ruined its own future along with most of ours.

Nobody said cave. We are saying "sit at the table, show the nation you're the bigger man in the negotiation, even if you KNOW nothing will come out of it". If the government defaults, he would have contributed to it because as the president, while you aren't expected to back down or cave, you are held to a higher standard and must show some kind of leadership, which he isn't doing in this case.

See above. Letting the Republicans win this game of chicken has longer lasting reprocussions than does the imminent threat of default. For one, it will allow miinority parties to murder passed laws at every opportunity. Don't like a bill that makes your big business interests take care of their employees? Hold the budget hostage. Don't like any health reform that doesn't favor pharmaceutical companies and hospitals? Hold the budget hostage. Hey, don't want to have a cap on how often you can vote your own raise into effect? Hold the budget hostage!

Again, it's not blinking in a game of chicken, it's beating the Republicans' at their own game. Personally, there's nothing worse than a default. No repercussions are worse at this point. If the Democrats caved in, I understand your point in that it's setting a horrible precedent. But this isn't what is being asked, nor debated.

I'll need PC access to do a reply with any justice as it'll involve pulling actual sources instead of analogies so later tonight I will reply in full. I would like to point out two things:

1. Negotiation implies agreement reached over an issue or shared concern. When one person is using leverage to compel the other person into agreeing to their conditions, it is more of an example of coercion. That being said, ongoing talks recently have "given hope" that "negotiations" may be resolved, but if so it will be because those supporting the shutdown are backpedalling furiously to avoid looking responsible. And most Americans polled do believe the Republicans are responsible over the Democrats, reality aside. So if this takes place, the Republicans can explain how they stuck to their guns to win the battle at the expense of winning the war.

2. You missed one possible alternative to the Island Crisis analogy: that the hook maker calls the string maker's buff as the latter eventually minimizes or eliminates his threats over concern of the island economy and of his own reputation. However, given the limited context the second of the two options is preferable. When presented with a false dillemma, it is often best to come up with a third option if at all possible, so as to avoid being funneled in by your opponent.

Except that if you go to the table, and nothing happens, and the republicans don't cave, then they can politically spin the issue as an exampele of obstructionist Democrats, when the opposite is actually the case.

1. Negotiation implies agreement reached over an issue or shared concern. When one person is using leverage to compel the other person into agreeing to their conditions, it is more of an example of coercion. That being said, ongoing talks recently have "given hope" that "negotiations" may be resolved, but if so it will be because those supporting the shutdown are backpedalling furiously to avoid looking responsible. And most Americans polled do believe the Republicans are responsible over the Democrats, reality aside. So if this takes place, the Republicans can explain how they stuck to their guns to win the battle at the expense of winning the war.

That isn't the only purpose of negotiations Janus. You and I can have differing opinions and I can go into negotiations with you knowing I'm not giving up anything and the negotiations will go nowhere, but the publicity move is in my favor and the pressure will be all on you. The same could be said for the Democrats and Obama.

2. You missed one possible alternative to the Island Crisis analogy: that the hook maker calls the string maker's buff as the latter eventually minimizes or eliminates his threats over concern of the island economy and of his own reputation. However, given the limited context the second of the two options is preferable. When presented with a false dillemma, it is often best to come up with a third option if at all possible, so as to avoid being funneled in by your opponent.

Yes you're right, I did miss this one.

Except that if you go to the table, and nothing happens, and the republicans don't cave, then they can politically spin the issue as an exampele of obstructionist Democrats, when the opposite is actually the case.

This has been the entire disagreement between us. I'm under the impression that if the Democrats DO go to the table, they're shown as the "bigger man", and the pressure to cave falls back onto the Republicans.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Sides might not be appropriate as it's difficult to say most if not all politicians are on their "own side" or firmly aligned with their parties'. Viewpoints might be best. In America, we dumb down people as liberals or conservatives routinely and our politics reflects that. I'm strongly against the Tea Party but I was a card carrying Republican. Now, I find that the Republicans are corrupted by fundamentalist stupidity and the Democrats hover somewhere between lesser evil and outright incompetent.

I'm not sold on libertarians either though, so my best choice is to immigrate or hope that the Boss from the Third Street Saints gets elected.

You live in Maine, right? Come up to Canada. We don't suck anymore.

When has Canada NOT sucked?

South Carolina now, so I live in the Republic of Jesusland.

And I'm not entirely sold that being the bigger man is as essential to avoiding a default as you're assuming. Even if the Dems never take a chair at the table (which recent reports indicate is not the case) Republicans are very obviously holding our financial future over the Democrats' head as a way to rewrite passed laws. Everyone can see this, although it is funny that Faux News and the stauncher members of the GOP call it Obama's shutdown as a way of misleading people of their involvement.

As you've indicated, even if no agreement is likely to be reached, despite pressure, what is the Republicans' ultimate plan? Default out of spite? Already they've soften their demands as public opinion tanks. From the POTUS' point of view, he's banking on the Republicans to do the right thing, and be reasonable over things. I don't beleive this can be considered "contributing" to the issue at hand.

Also, my apologies on a larger more thorough approach but I've been up 14 hours and I'm beat.

And I'm not entirely sold that being the bigger man is as essential to avoiding a default as you're assuming. Even if the Dems never take a chair at the table (which recent reports indicate is not the case) Republicans are very obviously holding our financial future over the Democrats' head as a way to rewrite passed laws. Everyone can see this, although it is funny that Faux News and the stauncher members of the GOP call it Obama's shutdown as a way of misleading people of their involvement.

Of course Fox news says that. Just like MSNBC calls the Republicans "terrorists". Two idiot networks supporting their side. And this is where our main disagreement is. You say whoever started it is 100% responsible. I say whoever started it isn't 100% responsible if the other side has a chance to be the bigger man but refuses, thereby contributing to the problem.

Star Wars:Rebels info-

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So new villain for the series, The Inquisitor??

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/star-wars-rebels-villain-revealed-647874?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thr%2Fnews+(The+Hollywood+Reporter+-+Top+Stories)

Looks like he'll be the one hunting down the Jedi. Damn I wanted Darth Vader to be doing that!

Not digging it.

I'm not uber-gleeful or anything as of yet, but the designs and info given at NYCC seem interesting.

Also caught an animatic of a deleted segment of the brothers' duel with Sidious. Gotta give Maul props for what he manages to do.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/10/13/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-5-deleted-sequence

^ 👆

That was cool. Makes me think perhaps Maul is close to Windu/Dooku level in the Force TK department.

I'm finding myself much more excited to hear more news on the animation side than Episode VII news.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ 👆

That was cool. Makes me think perhaps Maul is close to Windu/Dooku level in the Force TK department.

It was impressive as hell, no doubt about it. I bet it would have looked awesome in final production, alas....

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm finding myself much more excited to hear more news on the animation side than Episode VII news.

It's about even keel for me. I'm more anxious for Clone Wars bonus content and deleted footage so I can view it all and move on to Episode VII and Rebels.

Good thing that was taken out imo. You just know it would cause us a headache trying to puzzle it out. Also Maul just should not be able to do that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good thing that was taken out imo. You just know it would cause us a headache trying to puzzle it out. Also Maul just should not be able to do that.

It might still very well be canon: there's nothing explicitly contradicting it and the animatic does fit properly with the rest of the duel.

The primitive rendering makes it difficult to interpret. Sidious initially seems to be impotently grunting, but then cackles like it's no big deal. Facial animations would help explain whether or not it was a ploy.

Pretty cool scene though.

Its a deleted scene. We shouldn't consider it canon.

I suppose.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not uber-gleeful or anything as of yet, but the designs and info given at NYCC seem interesting.

Also caught an animatic of a deleted segment of the brothers' duel with Sidious. Gotta give Maul props for what he manages to do.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/10/13/star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-5-deleted-sequence

Those vocal effects were hilarious.