Originally posted by Nephthys
What do these people thing they should have done? Attacked the machine gun toting nazi's with their bare hands?
Uh, if there is 80 Jews for every SS Officer? Yeah, they probably should have. Machine Gun or no, they'd be completely overrun if they worked together. There'd be casualties, but it would be less than were already dying on a monthly basis.
And some camps had successfully organized takeovers during this time, even if a majority didn't.
Uh, if there is 80 Jews for every SS Officer? Yeah, they probably should have. Machine Gun or no, they'd be completely overrun if they worked together. There'd be casualties, but it would be less than were already dying on a monthly basis.And some camps had successfully organized takeovers during this time, even if a majority didn't.
Only at first. People that had been in the camps for more than a couple days were completely aware, they watched it happen and they were the ones disposing of the bodies.
No one wants to be the ones in front of the gun, but at the point where they're dropping like flies, the general consensus is that they're going to die anyway if they don't do something.
It's kinda like the mentality of the people that hijacked the terrorist-controlled plane at 9/11.
I guess you're right, they were just total cowards for not charging armed guards with their fists. 😬
What would they do after that? The german army would kill them anyway. They're in the middle of german held land.
Also I still recall that a lot of people thought they were showering and walked into the chambers not knowing what was going to happen.
Originally posted by NewGuy01People don't have a hive mind.
Uh, if there is 80 Jews for every SS Officer? Yeah, they probably should have. Machine Gun or no, they'd be completely overrun if they worked together. There'd be casualties, but it would be less than were already dying on a monthly basis.And some camps had successfully organized takeovers during this time, even if a majority didn't.
One guy isn't going to rush some armed men if he doesn't know 100% that other people are going with him. They'd have to coordinate a mass assault and guess what? They were constantly monitored so that couldn't happen.
Let's be honest, you'd be cowering in fear and willingly walking to the gas chamber in their place.
I wouldn't have though. I'd have ended WWII with a single well-placed jab.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Yes, that would have been statistically advantageous had things gone that way. What's your explanation for why it didn't happen?
Uh, if there is 80 Jews for every SS Officer? Yeah, they probably should have. Machine Gun or no, they'd be completely overrun if they worked together. There'd be casualties, but it would be less than were already dying on a monthly basis.And some camps had successfully organized takeovers during this time, even if a majority didn't.
An 80 vs 1 ratio is kind of meaningless in the face of guns. Even if they had rushed the guards, people were going to get killed. Getting all those people to work as a single group takes some serious f*cking communication and leadership. That shit's hard to come by when you're locked up in what amounts to a literal murder factory.
Originally posted by LuciusHindsight. That's the answer to your ridiculous assertion. Have more hindsight.
An 80 vs 1 ratio is kind of meaningless in the face of guns. Even if they had rushed the guards, people were going to get killed. Getting all those people to work as a single group takes some serious f*cking communication and leadership. That shit's hard to come by when you're locked up in what amounts to a literal murder factory.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I guess you're right, they were just total cowards for not charging armed guards with their fists. 😬
Never said anything of the sort. You said it would be implausible to attack an armed soldier with your bare hands, I argued 160 bare hands would do the trick.
What would they do after that? The german army would kill them anyway. They're in the middle of german held land.
They have better chances out there than in the middle of a death factory.
Also I still recall that a lot of people thought they were showering and walked into the chambers not knowing what was going to happen.
Those were people that had first arrived to the camp, and were immediately culled from the workforce. Even then, later in the war, everyone had heard the rumors--it was no secret, even to the new arrivals.
Originally posted by Lek Kuen
Weren't there also things like guard towers, and you know being fenced in? Sounds a lot harder then simply rushing one guy standing alone to free yourselves.
Yes, I'm not denying that. But the fact there were successful organized rebellions, even if they were the minority, just proves that it was possible.
I wasn't looking to start this whole debate here with my post, I was pointing out that the fact that the Nazi's had machine guns could be counteracted by how utterly they were outnumbered.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Yes, in blind numbers. Humans don't operate like that, though. This is like saying "if only the entire Soviet populace just marched on the German line, they would have overwhelmed them." The Soviets actually kinda tried that, using soldiers and weapons and communications... and they still died horribly more than their opponents.
Yes, I'm not denying that. But the fact there were successful organized rebellions, even if they were the minority, just proves that it was possible.I wasn't looking to start this whole debate here with my post, I was pointing out that the fact that the Nazi's had machine guns could be counteracted by how utterly they were outnumbered.
Now try the same thing. Only this time with women, children and the elderly alongside the able-bodied men. Men who haven't been trained, who have no weapons, who have families literally beside them to protect and get distracted by. Now take away all their communication (aside from yelling alot), and put them in to a large, barbwire pen guarded with machine guns, dogs, and homicidal SS guards.
Far more advantageous conditions were give an entire nation with far more people, materiel, and capabilities. And their victory came at the cost of 20 million. Whatever suicidal charge you envision the Jews and "undesirables" of Europe making against the German armies would end, quickly, brutally, and bloodily. Numbers weren't on their side. They didn't arrive at the camps in the millions all at once, that took time. Numbers never amounted to more than 200,000 at Auschwitz at any given time, and that was primarily a labor camp (at first). Most inmates likely thought to work their way through that hell. Keep their heads down, don't raise a fuss. The death camps themselves were designed to be small, to deceive the prisoners in to thinking they were waypoints. They were killed within hours of arrival, only aware of where they were as they were dying.
It's not as simple as the video game-esque scenario you seem to be imagining. Numbers mean shit next to all the human factors.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, I'm not denying that. But the fact there were successful organized rebellions, even if they were the minority, just proves that it was possible.I wasn't looking to start this whole debate here with my post, I was pointing out that the fact that the Nazi's had machine guns could be counteracted by how utterly they were outnumbered.
"Counteracted?" It's not just about numbers and guns. The persecution of the Jews by the Nazi regime was a incremental process, not one that happened all at once. It also wasn't made explicit that the Jews would die right off of the bat. This is easy to say in hindsight but when was there ever a previous concept where families were placed on trains, unloaded at "camps," and gassed? This was a foreign set of actions to the world, something newly introduced.
I mean, this was considered so "alien" and ridiculous, people had denied this even when informed by eye witnesses. (People had escaped from Auschwitz and Treblinka, telling of their experiences, only to not have their accounts believed by other people. These reports were also handed to the Polish government in exile to the Western allies and they didn't believe it either. Legit.)
Also, the Jewish were not a structured nation that had an army or military experience. They were a people with small populations scattered in separate occupied countries. These people didn't have access to arms and were not unified in any way, shape, or form.
Also, to speak to resistances and "successful uprisings?" It did happen, notably on three separate occasions and you’ll see how “successful” they were; The SonderKommando revolt at Auschwitz-Birkenau, the Sobibor Uprising, and the Treblinka Uprising.
Firstly, the SK revolt. These were a group of Jewish prisoners that handled the processing of belongings (of prisoners) and cremation of other fellow prisoners. They made some jury-rigged weapons and bombs. They set a crematorium on fire, killed three SS men, and SOME of them escaped. All of them were recaptured and killed. Every. Single. One. Four hundred and fifty one "SonderKommando" men dead.
Then, we have the Sobibor Uprising. In this revolt, a number of German officers and Ukrainian guards were killed (maybe thirty men?) Now, Sobibor was very "strictly" an extermination camp. People came via train and were gassed off the fucking bat. This made the prisoner count quite minuscule. There were roughly six hundred to seven hundred prisoners and half of them escaped. Most of them were hastily recaptured and killed immediately.
A lot of the prisoners that "fell through the cracks" of the escape were killed by the Polish resistance they met in the forests surrounding the camp. A lot were betrayed by Polish inhabitants. Some of the escapees were helped by offering what little possessions they had. Before you see the betrayal by the Polish as dastardly, harboring Jewish escapees and refugees came with a death sentence.
After the revolt, the remaining prisoners were swiftly murdered and Sobibor was shut down.
Now, onto the Treblinka Uprising. In this particular "uprising," three hundred prisoners of Treblinka managed to mount an escape and sixty six (two hundred of them) percent were recaptured (Again, the Polish inhabitants of the region contributed to the recapturing) and killed. In this particular uprising, three SS guards were killed and six hundred of the Jewish prisoners were exterminated. This happened shortly before the Sobibor Uprising (Sobibor's incident was in October of 1943, two months after the Treblinka Uprising) and a lot of prisoners from Treblinka were transferred to Sobibor and were executed.
(I should note that there were uprisings in a handful of Polish ghettos, including the Warsaw uprisings in January and April of ’43, without forgetting Bialystok’s uprising in August of ’43. These “uprising” Jews were forcefully and utterly smashed and almost EVERYONE was taken to Treblinka and effectively executed.)
My point should be obvious by now. For a number of reasons, including organization and circumstances, it was difficult for any resistance or uprising to effectively form itself. The induction of murdering Jews was a slow-burning, integrated process that gave the Jewish people, or any other victims, very little breathing room to react accordingly.
It was practically impossible to fight back. It’s easy to succumb to hindsight bias and be all, “Oh, they could’ve done something.”
Could they have? This was about control, about taking advantage of a weakened, fragmented people. If you think guns was the most influential factor? You simply do not understand, NewGuy01.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Hindsight. That's the answer to your ridiculous assertion. Have more hindsight.
Lol. I'm glad there's a discussion going on about this. Bravo, minions.
Yes, in blind numbers. Humans don't operate like that, though. This is like saying "if only the entire Soviet populace just marched on the German line, they would have overwhelmed them." The Soviets actually kinda tried that, using soldiers and weapons and communications... and they still died horribly more than their opponents.
And yea, don't think the Jews could have done much. While you had every age bracket there, a lot of the times the men were executed and dumped into a pile of corpses, while the women, children, elderly, and weak men were sent to concentration camps.