Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Jordan was better against better competition.
Nah to both. The league was arguably at it's modern time weakest when Jordan threepeated the second time around, with the expansion and such literally wattering down the league, and stretching the competion. No way is a team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp as your two best players winning 64 games in any other modern era of B-Ball. Not to mention, Jordan didn't have to deal with the anomalistic freaks at his position on a nightly basis like LeBron has to do against the KD's, Leanord's and PG's of the world. Someone like Reggie Miller, honestly pales in comparison to all of them.
And from an intangible standpoint - LJ is superior to MJ. He's bigger, faster, stronger, the better passer, better rebounder, more versatile defender, superior court vision, and better around the rim. Add that in conjunction to when he has his jumper is going, and none one on a plane higher than him at his peak.
Personally have these guys on the same level on average, honestly.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah to both. The league was arguably at it's modern time weakest when Jordan threepeated the second time around, with the expansion and such literally wattering down the league, and stretching the competion. No way is a team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp as your two best players winning 64 games in any other modern era of B-Ball. Not to mention, Jordan didn't have to deal with the anomalistic freaks at his position on a nightly basis like LeBron has to do against the KD's, Leanord's and PG's of the world. Someone like Reggie Miller, honestly pales in comparison to all of them.And from an intangible standpoint - LJ is superior to MJ. He's bigger, faster, stronger, the better passer, better rebounder, more versatile defender, superior court vision, and better around the rim. Add that in conjunction to when he has his jumper is going, and none one on a plane higher than him at his peak.
Personally have these guys on the same level on average, honestly.
1. The league is weaker now than it was then. It's completely top heavy. You have 4 very good teams, and then crap all over. The Eastern Conference is historically weak. That Sonics team was incredibly good, as was the Jazz team. Jordan had to deal with some freaks (not as much as today) who also had the advantage of hand checking, yet he still averaged over 30 a game, which tells me he'd average 40 in today's soft league. The best players in the 80s and 90s could easily compete with today's best and that's without the advantage of travel, medicine, physical fitness, and other technological breakthroughs.
LJ is bigger than Jordan, he's definitely not as fast as Jordan. He's also nowhere near as good as MJ around the rim and again, MJ had to play against physical defenses while today's NBA teams part like the red sea when someone's attacking the basket. He's a better rebounder and a slightly better passer, but MJ once got 11 triple doubles in 13 games just because people said he couldn't pass. He didn't have to do as much as Lebron but I think that's because his teammates were terrified of him, making him a better leader. MJ could guard 1-4. We could argue Lebron being able to guard 1-5 but that's because there are no true 5s anymore. Lebron could certainly not guard the centers of the 80s and 90s. And finally, Jordan lived at the mid range during his second three peat. Peak Jordan is superior to peak Lebron.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
1. The league is weaker now than it was then.
Not really.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
It's completely top heavy. You have 4 very good teams, and then crap all over.
Nah. Clippers, Cleveland, Thunder, Spurs, Golden State, Raptors, etc are all pretty good teams. Celtics and Blazers have mad tapped potential as well. Besides use logic - when a new team enters the fray via expansion, an expansion draft takes place that literally plucks players - sometimes key players off other teams and dilute the talent. A quick Google search will show that some of the worst teams ever from a W/L standpoint comes from the Jordan era. A lot of shitty teams day in and day out to play, and a lot of roll players/potential key roll players plucked off potential contenders to muck it up with the bottom.[QUOTE=15787310]Originally posted by MS Warehouse
[B]The Eastern Conference is historically weak.
I'm not going to argue that, but I would argue the West is as good as it has ever been.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
That Sonics team was incredibly good, as was the Jazz team.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Jordan had to deal with some freaks (not as much as today)
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
who also had the advantage of hand checking, yet he still averaged over 30 a game, which tells me he'd average 40 in today's soft league.
I'm just gonna leave this here:
"What’s not often spoken of is how, during Jordan’s era, a team couldn’t play zone the way it can now—keeping a player on the other side of the floor, basically playing two defenders on an opponent—thus encouraging duels and shootouts between gifted players in a one-on-one matchup. If one player was on the left side, say, everyone else had to be on the right side. With such one-on-one coverage, highly gifted shooters enjoyed a field day—in fact, they enjoyed many such days. In today’s game, two or three people can flock to the ball and force a player to pass it. Or a player can go to the other side, double-team an opponent, sit in the paint for two-and-a-half seconds and clear out on the same side of a player’s isolation. In Jordan’s era, if a player even looked like he was coming on the other side of the court, he was was nabbed with a defensive violation. Thus one-on-one was king, playing to the strengths of a gunslinger like Jordan—and for those who were even more gifted scorers, like Kobe, that would likely have yielded quite a scorer’s payday.
“If you gave any one of us guys that can score at a high level [such] one-on-one coverage, it’s to our advantage every time,” Durant says to me. “We don’t talk about that [in comparing Kobe and Jordan]. We only talk about hand checking and physicality. So imagine if the best scorers in our game today—Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, guys like that—played all one-on-one, all the time. Imagine the points they would score. Imagine the averages we would see.”
Read more at http://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/features/kobe-bryant-interview-feature-slam/#l9CAJsOmcQlwGdyP.99
/point
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
The best players in the 80s and 90s could easily compete with today's best and that's without the advantage of travel, medicine, physical fitness, and other technological breakthroughs.
None of this refutes my point. A big part of Jordan's claim to fame was that he was flat-out more athletic than everyone else. Literally no one at the SG/SF spot could compete with his athletic deftness. In this era, where he have guys Westbrook and peak Derick Rose doing unbelievable shit at the PG position, he won't have that same advantage
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
LJ is bigger than Jordan.
That's a given.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
he's definitely not as fast as Jordan.
Based on? It's commonly accepted by greats who played against Jordan, that LeBron is the more gifted all around athlete.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse He's also nowhere near as good as MJ around the rim [/B]
Originally posted by MS Warehouse and again, MJ had to play against physical defenses while today's NBA teams part like the red sea when someone's attacking the basket. [/B]
And Jordan didn't have to deal with the athletic freaks leBron does, neither the more complex defenses schemes and zone defense that was illegal during M"s peak.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse He's a better rebounder and a slightly better passer[/B]
[i]but MJ once got 11 triple doubles in 13 games just because people said he couldn't pass.[/B]
Jordan was intentionally stat padding by going to the scorers table to constantly keep up with his stats and such so he could get to those vaunted triple-doubles. Selfish, try hard play for purposeful individual accolades doesn't cut the mustard. LeBron can do the same if he played on a straight shitty team, and was only looking to run up his box score numbers.
[i]He didn't have to do as much as Lebron but I think that's because his teammates were terrified of him, making him a better leader.[/B]
[i]MJ could guard 1-4.[/B]
[i]We could argue Lebron being able to guard 1-5 but that's because there are no true 5s anymore. Lebron could certainly not guard the centers of the 80s and 90s[/B]
I agree LeBron couldn't guard anyone true 5's, but 1-4? Yes - he absolutely could, and at a much more effective level than MJ could ever dream of.
[i]And finally, Jordan lived at the mid range during his second three peat.[/B]
[i]Peak Jordan is superior to peak Lebron.[/B]
I disagree, but whateves.
Not really.
I'm not going to argue that, but I would argue the West is as good as it has ever been.
Ehh. That Sonics team isn't anywhere near as good as those Spurs teams LeBron faced, and the Jazz, while good - aren't as good as the Golden State Warriors squad that LeBron is utterly anal ****ing.
The athletes and anomalies MJ played against is nowhere near the ones LeBron faces. Show me one 7 foot scoring machine, with an even wider wing-span, solid handles, and can score from anywhere on the field MJ went up against.
I've read the slam article. It had some interesting points and some stupid ones. For instance, having "2 or 3 players flock to one player". We saw the Pistons do that to MJ until he finally beat it. That stuff existed in the old NBA, although not as prevalent as it is today.
Furthermore, once you got into the lane in the old days, you would get killed. IF you get in the lane today, the players will move out of the way and let you lay it up.
None of this refutes my point. A big part of Jordan's claim to fame was that he was flat-out more athletic than everyone else. Literally no one at the SG/SF spot could compete with his athletic deftness. In this era, where he have guys Westbrook and peak Derick Rose doing unbelievable shit at the PG position, he won't have that same advantage
Based on? It's commonly accepted by greats who played against Jordan, that LeBron is the more gifted all around athlete.
Yeah, he is. Not only does the stats say so, but LeBron's sheer strength, frame, explosiveness alone would tell you that. Call me when MJ is throwing down dunks that impact harder than a haymaker from a primed up Mike Tyson.
And Jordan didn't have to deal with the athletic freaks leBron does, neither the more complex defenses schemes and zone defense that was illegal during M"s peak.
Jordan was intentionally stat padding by going to the scorers table to constantly keep up with his stats and such so he could get to those vaunted triple-doubles. Selfish, try hard play for purposeful individual accolades doesn't cut the mustard. LeBron can do the same if he played on a straight shitty team, and was only looking to run up his box score numbers.
ROTFLMAO. What weak reasoning.
Yeah, maybe if that four was an extremely small one. No way is Jordan guarding any half-decent power forward for more than a play. Someone like Draymond Green would back Jordan so far under the goal, he'd be able to wave to Hitler in Hell. LeBron on the other hand has no problem sticking to him like glue
I agree LeBron couldn't guard anyone true 5's, but 1-4? Yes - he absolutely could, and at a much more effective level than MJ could ever dream of.