The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Started by Master Crimzon3,287 pages

Morals are subjective, that is correct. There is no universal right or wrong. Instead, good and evil are standards decided by each society for the purposes of defining it. For example, freedom is seen as the ultimate good within a leftist society, while discipline is seen as the ultimate good in a fascist society; neither are better than the other. However, I personally choose to endorse the former because it is more in line with my standards and my morality; however, my standards and my morality are far from universally applied, if you get me.

That being set, thought, a society has to follow the moral standards it sets for itself. Murder is perceived as wrong in the U.S: this is a defining standard. Society, as a whole, must pursue its own moral standards and keep them in all places for the purposes of its definition as a society. Killing is viewed as a very negative act due to our cultural standards; it applies to every single member of the society. It should be avoided whenever possible, and thus jail time is always preferential. The purpose of a jail is to keep the felons who will potentially harm society away; there is no difference between that and killing them, looking from an external factor. The death penalty serves no practical point, you understand, and eliminates the possibility of redemption and rehabilitation.

So you can say I am neither a deontologist nor a consequentialist. I am neither an absolutist nor a relativist. It all specifically depends on the circumstance and the society.

Oh, and before somebody checks my other arguments and deems me a hypocrite for believing that people who break the law (and thus the cultural standards of a society) can only be judged as immoral based on their motivations and the ultimate consequences of their actions? Well, these kinds of people aren't in authority positions- they aren't sworn to, at all costs, monitor the standards of their culture. The judges, the presidents, all of these guys? They're responsible for leading their culture; and a culture is strictly defined by the standards it sets for itself. You bypass these standards, and you destroy a society's moral worth and moral high ground.

Also, something else just occured to me. Going by your standards of morality being purely relativistic and not universal (which I agree with), then the motivations and desires from terrorist organizations and the U.S is inherently equal. Thus, the only way to genuinely create a difference and maintain moral decency for the U.S is to control the means it utilizes. Create strict standards which define our moral decency and our moral policy, because we aren't the "Good Guys".

Originally posted by Autokrat
In lieu of the death penalty or prison, I could see human experimentation being useful in extreme cases. Say you have a rapist who has an extremely high risk to re offend? Use him as a human guinea pig for science. Or serial killers, why kill them when they can be put to much better use? Terrorists would also be good candidates for this. It would have to be extreme cases though, for such a punishment.
I like you.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like you.

How much of that is the internet persona and how much is the fact that you haven't thought out his proposal yet?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That being set, thought, a society has to follow the moral standards it sets for itself. Murder is perceived as wrong in the U.S: this is a defining standard. Society, as a whole, must pursue its own moral standards and keep them in all places for the purposes of its definition as a society. Killing is viewed as a very negative act due to our cultural standards; it applies to every single member of the society. It should be avoided whenever possible, and thus jail time is always preferential. The purpose of a jail is to keep the felons who will potentially harm society away; there is no difference between that and killing them, looking from an external factor. The death penalty serves no practical point, you understand, and eliminates the possibility of redemption and rehabilitation.

This is where you and I differ in opinion. Yes, murder is a negative aspect of society; however, I do not think that makes it unjust for society to kill the murderer. The system should not concern itself with what is right or wrong, it should only concern itself with what is best for the system has a whole. Redeeming a murderer takes time and money, valued resources of the state. Is it possible that the person can reform? Yes, it is, but to me, the chance that said person will is too small. Unless we someday create an AI capable of determining all the variables, there is not accurate way to say that murderer X will become an upstanding member of society. They are not worth the money and time invested unless we can be sure that the odds are in society's favor. Do I believe the death penalty is the best way? No, I don't, I think in the current system it is wasteful, but that does not mean it should be outlawed, simply made less wasteful.

Morals are subjective, society doesn't lower its moral standards when it kills a murderer. This reeks of Kant, and deontology. Society simply does what is necessary to remove the harmful object, there is no moral high or low ground. Only action and the logical consequence.

That said, the current system we have here in the US, is, in my opinion, inefficient.

I like the way this person thinks. Though personally I'm more towards the view that my morals ( or lack of if that's the case) are absolute.

Also, why the revenge hate 🙁

They are not worth the money and time invested unless we can be sure that the odds are in society's favor.

Except that society is in place to aid individuals, not because it is valuable in and of itself. (Ignoring the evolutionary origins of society out of convenience, of course.)

No, I don't, I think in the current system it is wasteful, but that does not mean it should be outlawed.

It is wasteful, corrupt (50% black men in prison? really?), inaccurate, and run by flawed human beings. I don't think that it should have control over anyone's fate, at least in terms of life and death.

It is wasteful, corrupt (50% black men in prison? really?), inaccurate, and run by flawed human beings. I don't think that it should have control over anyone's fate, at least in terms of life and death.

Why not? Seems like a good idea to me.

Originally posted by Autokrat
This is where you and I differ in opinion. Yes, murder is a negative aspect of society; however, I do not think that makes it unjust for society to kill the murderer. The system should not concern itself with what is right or wrong, it should only concern itself with what is best for the system has a whole. Redeeming a murderer takes time and money, valued resources of the state. Is it possible that the person can reform? Yes, it is, but to me, the chance that said person will is too small. Unless we someday create an AI capable of determining all the variables, there is not accurate way to say that murderer X will become an upstanding member of society. They are not worth the money and time invested unless we can be sure that the odds are in society's favor. Do I believe the death penalty is the best way? No, I don't, I think in the current system it is wasteful, but that does not mean it should be outlawed, simply made less wasteful.

1. Pragmatism is important, to be sure, but never forget the ethical and the moral level; acting on actions simply based on their efficiency is, in my eyes, wrong: there is also morality to comprehend. There is a level that exists beyond the bare facts- the abstract level of morality, ethics, and such. This is why we are humans not animals. We don't act simply on what is best for our survival- our intellect, our ability for conscious thought, our desire for finding a deeper meaning in life than to reproduce gives us the ability to form moral codes we must adhere to. Morality is what separates us from animals, and is the gift of our intelligence.

2. There is a low possibility of rehabilitation, but it can still be done. This eliminates the concept of efficiency- if, out of 100 serial killers who go in prison, 10 become functioning members of society while 90 live in utter seclusion to prevent them from further endangering society, then rehabilitation is a success.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Why not? Seems like a good idea to me.

"better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

-and-

Exodus 23:7 ("the innocent and righteous slay thou not"😉

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Except that society is in place to aid individuals, not because it is valuable in and of itself. (Ignoring the evolutionary origins of society out of convenience, of course.)

I view the betterment of the system as the means to a betterment of society. Obviously the system should be balanced, I'm not arguing for a 1984. I'm arguing for a logical use of resources.

It is wasteful, corrupt (50% black men in prison? really?), inaccurate, and run by flawed human beings. I don't think that it should have control over anyone's fate, at least in terms of life and death.

You seem to ask for a perfect system, which is unrealistic. The system is flawed in many ways, but is all we have. To say it shouldn't have the ability to decide people's fates is to take away the rule of law.

You mention the number of black men in prison. Racism no doubt has a large influence in that; however, if one simply looks at the demographics (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2005.pdf), you will notice that a good number of black people number among the working poor. Crime rates among the working poor are higher than those of the middle class. It only makes sense that some part of that statistic comes from this. Obviously the question arises as to why, so many black people number among the working poor and then that opens up an entirely new argument into one of America's most serious flaws.

There is a low possibility of rehabilitation, but it can still be done. This eliminates the concept of efficiency- if, out of 100 serial killers who go in prison, 10 become functioning members of society while 90 live in utter seclusion to prevent them from further endangering society, then rehabilitation is a success.

I personally do not agree with Blackstone. Those numbers are not good enough to me, ten success and ninety failures? Think of the money wasted on the 90% that failed. It is not worth the 10% who succeeded.

Originally posted by Autokrat

You seem to ask for a perfect system, which is unrealistic. The system is flawed in many ways, but is all we have. To say it shouldn't have the ability to decide people's fates is to take away the rule of law.


I don't mean that rule of law should be abolished (or even castrated) but I don't think that the ultimate decision of the life or death of another human being should be given to any one institution.

Originally posted by Autokrat

You mention the number of black men in prison. Racism no doubt has a large influence in that; however, if one simply looks at the demographics (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2005.pdf), you will notice that a good number of black people number among the working poor. Crime rates among the working poor are higher than those of the middle class. It only makes sense that some part of that statistic comes from this. Obviously the question arises as to why, so many black people number among the working poor and then that opens up an entirely new argument into one of America's most serious flaws.

Damn. I was arguing just that point a couple weeks ago. I can't disagree (because you're right). I would however point out that sentencing also varies greatly by region and defendant.

I pretty much agree with the other stuff.

-edit-

Think of the money wasted

Money is insignificant in the face of societal or individual problems.

[list=1]
[*]The Individual
[*]The Society
[*]The [other groups with which one identifies]
[*]The government
[*]The economy
[/list]

I just don't think that money is that important when compared with the life and rights of an individual.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I personally do not agree with Blackstone. Those numbers are not good enough to me, ten success and ninety failures? Think of the money wasted on the 90% that failed. It is not worth the 10% who succeeded.

My argument boils down to the following: I disagree, that's all. Efficiency is not a value that should be held at all costs.

On a different note, I do agree with you that racism is not a dominating factor within the American justice system- rather, racism and segregation are factors (although not the most dominant ones) in poverty, which is a dominating factor for crime in the United States. There is a discrimination against poverty, not races, in the court system.


So you believe in revenge.

I believe in justice.

[/b]
An eye for an eye is not justice- it is revenge. The two are not synonymous.

Not necessarily. If you haven't noticed, revenge and justice are basically the same thing, except with different motivations.
[/b]
Or not.

See what it's like to have someone else's moral outlook forced upon your lifestyle? Isn't fun, is it? When your culturally imperialistic views start costing peoples' lives we have a problem: it becomes more and more difficult to coexist.

Yes, and your retarded liberal views and misplacement of responsibility is even better.

I don't think that we're blaming society here: insanity is not (to my knowledge) caused by societal pressure. (Other than the exposure to potentially harmful chemicals and the cognitive dissonance caused by seeing atrocities of crime in poorer neighborhoods...)

Show me statistics about "many" of the death row inmates suffering from insanity. Then define "many".

Anyway, there are many cases in the news about people being found innocent by reason of (temporary?) insanity. If someone is not in control of their mental facilities then they can't be held accountable for things they do as part of their psychosis. You wouldn't prosecute someone with diabetes for hitting something (property damage) with a car if they went into a coma (or whatever it is that happens) and you can't prosecute an insane person if they are suffering from a medically diagnosed mental condition.

Apparently you fail to grasp that the opposite of guilty isn't innocent, but not guilty. Not guilty means that the prosecution hasn't proved beyond a reasonable doubt about the defendant's guilt. Innocent means something totally different. And I believe in insanity. Unfortunately it is abused time and time again. You're talking about more of the exception than the rule.


Or not. Prison can be worse than being dead- they can not suffer anymore if we kill them.

Or not. They can live the rest of their lives with gangs, drugs and commissary.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Wis the hell is having any motivation perceived as 'eliminating responsibility' when it comes to conservatives? People are only personally responsible for their actions if they do it for the purpose of being irrational dicks.

ROFL. This is why liberalism is the downfall of our society. Stupid shit like that. Liberals and their "compassion". Hate to tell you this but whether you do something on purpose or not, is irrelevant. Intent is irrelevant. There's a reason the majority of society CHOOSES not to break the law. People are personally responsible for their choices, period. The only justification is insanity.

Also, as for the eye for an eye thing? It's bullshit. Human beings are tried during desperate situations- thus, these are the exact times to maintain our moral standards and prevent ourselves from degenerating into people who murder in order to enforce our world view. We define ourselves via our standards of morality, standards which must never be dropped. It is acceptable that the perpetrators of the most heinous crimes are put in prison and prevented from leading a life, as a result of their crimes- however, it is not acceptable for us to take their lives and thus degenerate to their standards.

Hilarious. Leave it to MC to blame anybody but the responsible party. You're basically insinuating that humans are naturally good, so when they do something wrong, it's not their fault. And it is NOT degenerating to their standards. Stupid liberal garbage like this is what makes America an easy target. In fact, what you're saying makes no sense at all. Everyone in this country gets a fair trial, so everyone gets an equal chance at aquittal. We are not "Murdering" the convicts. We are punishing them for their crimes.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Morals are subjective, that is correct. There is no universal right or wrong. Instead, good and evil are standards decided by each society for the purposes of defining it. For example, freedom is seen as the ultimate good within a leftist society, while discipline is seen as the ultimate good in a fascist society; neither are better than the other. However, I personally choose to endorse the former because it is more in line with my standards and my morality; however, my standards and my morality are far from universally applied, if you get me.

THis is more liberal bullshit at its finest. I'll give you a hint, it makes no sense, nor is this followed by any rational human being. There ARE universal right and wrongs. What you're saying is, the Holocaust was justified, the Russian massacres post world war 2 were justified, a rape could be considered art, and I can kill you and eat you because it's part of my "morals". Try again, this doesn't fly in the real world.

That being set, thought, a society has to follow the moral standards it sets for itself. Murder is perceived as wrong in the U.S: this is a defining standard. Society, as a whole, must pursue its own moral standards and keep them in all places for the purposes of its definition as a society. Killing is viewed as a very negative act due to our cultural standards; it applies to every single member of the society. It should be avoided whenever possible, and thus jail time is always preferential. The purpose of a jail is to keep the felons who will potentially harm society away; there is no difference between that and killing them, looking from an external factor. The death penalty serves no practical point, you understand, and eliminates the possibility of redemption and rehabilitation.

Murder is perceived wrong everywhere. See, this is why liberals resist religion in general. They don't like the idea of having a moral authority. They don't like the idea of ethical monotheism. Without religion or a moral authority, any action is justified since everything is subjective.

And there's no redemption or rehabilitation. You remind me of those hilarious people that sympathize with the murderer, rather than the victim.

So you can say I am neither a deontologist nor a consequentialist. I am neither an absolutist nor a relativist. It all specifically depends on the circumstance and the society.

Here's my question to you and I doubt you could answer it. If everything is equal, values, culture, everything, what could you POSSIBLY be passionate about? Since nothing is better than anything, what completes your life?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

-and-

Exodus 23:7 ("the innocent and righteous slay thou not"😉

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation

The lawyers code. Awesome. I agree with this.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I believe in justice.
Revenge isn't justice. Revenge is personal, it's about making yourself feel better. Justice is about what's fair.

Not necessarily. If you haven't noticed, revenge and justice are basically the same thing, except with different motivations.
Backwards, and still wrong. See the above.

Yes, and your retarded liberal views and misplacement of responsibility is even better.
I see the past fifty pages haven't taught you much.

Or not. They can live the rest of their lives with gangs, drugs and commissary.
In prison. You say you did time in county; how was that?

I'm fairly draconian and conservative on several issues, DS, but I truly think you're going out of your way to make the appearance of a hardass.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ROFL. This is why liberalism is the downfall of our society. Stupid shit like that. Liberals and their "compassion".
Yeah, who needs compassion? Let's kill those unborn babies!

You, like other "pro-lifers" [the term always brings a smile to face] who support execution [the taking of life] are hypocrites.

Hate to tell you this but whether you do something on purpose or not, is irrelevant. Intent is irrelevant.
The court disagrees. First-degree murder =/= involuntary/criminally negligent manslaughter =/= self-defense.

Common sense disagrees too, but you've made it clear that that's a harder sell.

There's a reason the majority of society CHOOSES not to break the law. People are personally responsible for their choices, period. The only justification is insanity.
You're missing the [admittedly poorly-worded] point. Acknowledging responsibility does not negate the existence of a motivation.

Really though, Crimzon, people aren't responsible for their actions unless they intended to be "irrational dicks"? A drunk driver who kills your mother and father and cripples you for life isn't "responsible" for what he's done?

I sincerely hope this was simply an error on your part.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
THis is more liberal bullshit at its finest. I'll give you a hint, it makes no sense, nor is this followed by any rational human being. There ARE universal right and wrongs.
As defined by who, DS? I asked you this four hundred posts ago, and still haven't gotten an answer. Who establishes these "universal" rights and wrongs?

What you're saying is, the Holocaust was justified, the Russian massacres post world war 2 were justified, a rape could be considered art, and I can kill you and eat you because it's part of my "morals". Try again, this doesn't fly in the real world.
I went through this with you already. There is almost always a "justification" for an action, provided by either the perpetrator or an observer; that doesn't make it logical. The Nazis slaughtered Jews because [justification] Hitler wanted them to. People rape for [justification] personal satisfaction.

Murder is perceived wrong everywhere.
This is incorrect. See just about every homicide ever committed.

Most societies "perceive" murder as wrong because of the emotional and socioeconomic toll it has on individuals and groups, not because it's a "universal wrong" according to... who, again?

See, this is why liberals resist religion in general. They don't like the idea of having a moral authority.
I can't speak for all liberals, but I "resist" organized religion because I'd rather not be completely delusional.

They don't like the idea of ethical monotheism.
I don't like the idea of sharing your ethics and morals, some of which operate on hypocrisy.

Without religion or a moral authority, any action is justified since everything is subjective.
The legal system is all the "moral authority" that is needed, thanks. Jesus doesn't put people in jail or hand out tickets or

And there's no redemption or rehabilitation.
In a Star Wars forum, no less. This is rampant idiocy at its best.

And this guy alone proves you wrong.

Here's my question to you and I doubt you could answer it. If everything is equal, values, culture, everything, what could you POSSIBLY be passionate about? Since nothing is better than anything, what completes your life?
...?

You should probably reread this question and make sure it's what you actually wanted to ask.