Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
This is basically all I'm accustomed to in the two philosophy classes I've taken. "Intro to Philosophy, Intro to Ethics". I'm tickled to death to know that's not what Philosophy is about. I'm glad it's all encompassing but you still have to admit that stuff like that is pretty much meaningless mental masturbation. I call it mental masturbation because it serves no purpose. You won't be able to score well on an LSAT or any intellectual aptitude test because you're advanced in philosophy(this is a response to the idea that philosophy increases your critical thinking, intelligence, etc). But my experiences are based solely on those two freshman level courses and the hilarious professors.
Well...Maybe I can explain that to you.
That kind of thought-experiments (e.g. "Define LOVE"😉 are just there to teach students a different method of thinking. In everyday life, there isn't much reason to define the feeling (or subconscious processes) related to the term "love". Yet, that kind of exercise is needed to get into more complex subjects. One could also say it develops the ability to think "outside the box" that might lead to a better understanding of certain subjects.
Of course, in terms of everyday live, most of that experiments are pretty much meaningless. That also applies to a workout at the gym, but that set of muscles you get there might help you in other situations. 😉
I'm not sure the mouse has free will provided that you gave it one possible choice.
That's the point. Following the theory of determinism, there is just one possible choice for every human, that said human has to take. So there isn't any "free will" involved.
And yet again, this is where I have problems with this issue. We don't know what God determined. We don't know where our lives are going to end, nor the consequences of our choices. Therefore, we can still make choices A, B, C, D, etc. I'm not understanding why we're not looking at the issue from a human perspective. I'm not infallible, I can choose to go to law school, or become a career criminal, etc. Yes, God knows what choice I'm inevitably going to make, but he's still giving me that choice. He's not giving me a maze with one way through, and THAT is why I think that example is flawed in this regard.
Well. I think our look on the topic differs - or rather than that, we're talking about different topics in this very situation.
Determinism states that everything follows from a set of conditions. It basically states that certain conditions force you to act in a certain way. So you don't have any choice. If you follow that "backwards" - and believe in determinsm - than God [ultimately] created all conditions, means he forces you to take a certain decission.
If you have a free will, he can't force you to decide in a certain way. It's all up to you - and not happening because of the mentioned conditions. But if that's true, than we always have - at least - two different possible outcomes for every possible decission - and that's indeterminism.
From what I understand, God admitted (although not specifically) the flaw in his design of Adam and Eve(man), yet he still gave them the ability to obey him or not, while giving them the temptation. I'll have a better explanation for you regarding this matter in a day or two.
Yes. This is what it should be like. But if determinism is correct, than the line of conditions God created himself led - without a choice - to them being cast out of paradise. In a determined world, they never had a real choice to obey or not. From there, either God must be a rather sadistic ******* [which I don't belive] or determinism doesn't work.
How about this. Everything is predetermined by God. You can go outside, do what you want, say what you want(within the law of course), be who you want to be. That is not an illusion. To YOU, the fallible human being with no knowledge of the future, you are making choices every minute of your life. How can that not be considered free will?
Because if everything is predetermined by God, I don't have a choice but to follow a way that he has already determined for me. So why I would think that I make choices, I would always be acting according to his plan for me. And provided that he is in "control" of all conditions that I would meet prior to choices, he can control my choices. That would be the illusion of a free will, even if I would perceive it as "true" free will.
Still God himself would know better. And if that's the case, a whole lot of things doesn't make sense. If I can't decide wheather to break his laws or not, because he has predetermined if I will do so, than it wouldn't make any sense for him to punish me for my "wrongdoing", as he would be the cause of that wrongdoing.
Bottom line: "Free will" and determinism can't be combined in a logical fashion. Hence the corresponding theories mentioned earlier in this thread try to create a combination of both appear to be wrong, unless there is a reality determined according to every possible choice (and combination of choices) that can be made.
But then I'd have to ask, why God [or the universe, or natural laws, or whatever] would work in such a strange fashion...
Originally posted by Shoes
God is supposedly omniscient. If God knows something will happen, it will.
God's supposed omniscience doesn't mean that everything is predetermined. If God exists as an omnipotent entity, he isn't limited by time or space. He is everywhere and that at every time given. Thusly, he observes past, present and future at the same time.
If that is the case, he could archive knowledge of future events (future in human terms) because he has already perceived them and following that line of thought, he can be aware of decissions you are about to make (from the human view in the present), because he has already witnessed you making them (as he isn't bound by time).
So maybe he avoids direct contact with mortal beings because he wants to avoid different forms of time-travel paradoxes... 😛
It works if you agree to their smaller version, or you can go here:
http://www.qwantz.com/fanart/superman.pdf