The Battle Bar, Our Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Hitler wasn't religious either.

So he stayed a member of the Catholic Church and encouraged other leading figures of Nazi Germany to do the same - for no reason. Why do you think that Hitler had something against Jews? No religious reason behind that?

Go ahead, post those sources I know you're going to post. You would have a much better argument had Hitler believed that the Nazi VALUES were superior to the Jews and everybody else. The fact that he believed blood was superior, makes it a not very Christian or religious belief, at ALL.

Actually, he occassionally took the long road of "The Jews killed Jesus" to arrive at antisemitism before he transformed that into a racistic ideology. What else could he have had against the Jews if it wasn't based on religious prejudices? Do you think he woke up one morning and - for no apparent reason - thought: "My-o-my. Those Jews are an annoying race and have to be exterminated. Reason: I just say so"?

And to claim Nazi Germany was secular is a joke. Heinrich Himmler was busy with replacing Christian religion with classical norse religion (hence all that runes being used by the SS). Do you call that secular? Of course Hitler, probably, wanted to get rid of the Churches at some point in time during the future - yet he knew that he had to replace them. The same is true for Marx by the way - at least to a certain extend.

Originally posted by Borbarad
So he stayed a member of the Catholic Church and encouraged other leading figures of Nazi Germany to do the same - for no reason. Why do you think that Hitler had something against Jews? No religious reason behind that?

And to claim Nazi Germany was secular is a joke. Heinrich Himmler was busy with replacing Christian religion with classical norse religion (hence all that runes being used by the SS). Do you call that secular? Of course Hitler, probably, wanted to get rid of the Churches at some point in time during the future - yet he knew that he had to replace them. The same is true for Marx by the way - at least to a certain extend.

To claim that Nazi Germany was some kind of "religious" propaganda is more of a joke.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id2.html

Both good reads

Children.

SWEU is back up. I've saved you the trouble of sifting through that nonsense they call the Russian "language" and found the page with the books.

More importantly: Shadows of Mindor FTW.

Originally posted by Eminence
Children.

SWEU is back up. I've saved you the trouble of sifting through that nonsense they call the Russian "language" and found the page with the books.

More importantly: Shadows of Mindor FTW.

Iunno, I get through the Russian without a problem🙂

Two words for you Americans. R-O-S-E-T-T-A S-T-O-N-E.

i dont get through the russian without a problem. 🙂

so **** you 🙂

*reads*

read some interesting stuff int he past hour or so. much to autokrats detriment, there are more examples of lightsabers transferring kinetic energy through the blades. in the last command the force with which luuke swings his blade at luke makes luke stagger backwards. xD

also theres a passage that states that the impact of lightning hitting mara (or maybe luke) sends him/her flying backwards.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Religious? Nope.

Lmao. Would please stop to contradict pretty much all scientific effort to analyze Hitler and his motives because of your opinion. Hitler glorified Richard Wagner. In the book "Gespräche mit Hitler" ("Talks with Hitler"😉 Hermann Rauschning quotes Hitler with his idea to construct his own religion based on the ideas present in Wagners "Parsifal".

So Hitler wanted his own religion but wasn't religious? Lmao.

Nope, but it wasn't because he was Christian.

This is hilarity incarnated: Where did all hatred against the jews come from? Not from a religious background? Oh. Of course. Hitler did adopt some teachings from Madame Blavatsky and Lanz von Liebenfels speaking about the "purity of blood", yet his hatred against the jews was still based upon century old religious prejudice. I really don't get how you can deny that.

To claim that Nazi Germany was some kind of "religious" propaganda is more of a joke.

No. It's not. Because Hitler himself saw it as a religious construct. That you can't accept that because of your complete lack of knowledge about the issue is certainly not my problem. But go on lecturing a German who used to study history on German history. It makes so much sense.

No. It's not. Because Hitler himself saw it as a religious construct. That you can't accept that because of your complete lack of knowledge about the issue is certainly not my problem. But go on lecturing a German who used to study history on German history. It makes so much sense.

You mean sort of like you're lecturing a Russian who studied his own history, ON his own history?🙂 That makes so much sense Nai. Oh, the irony is amazing🙂 Btw good job ignoring the links.

Also, since you're the most predictable one on this forum, I'm assuming you're going to backpeddle with your hypocrisy, throw out some insults, sarcasm, and continue ignoring the links because of your insecurities.

Also

http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?/topic/22001-hitler-hated-jews-important-jews-know/

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/why_hitler_hated_jews/

I could provide a lot more, or even books, since you seem hell bent on telling me Hitler hated Jews because he was religious, but I'm sure many of us here have studied Nazi history and haven't come to the same conclusion as you.. It's also funny how you have provided zero evidence too, but I digress.

Also LOL@you lecturing another Jew on Hitler's ideology concerning Jews. Perhaps you should ACTUALLY do research, rather than pretend you know everything 🙂

Those two links are pretty worthless imo. 'hitler mainly hated Jews because he sought to eradicate morality and viewed Jews as the sole epitome of morality. Maybe he was right.' 😬

They're both written by two random's on the internet. They aren't real evidence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Those two links are pretty worthless imo. 'hitler mainly hated Jews because he sought to eradicate morality and viewed Jews as the sole epitome of morality. Maybe he was right.' 😬

They're both written by two random's on the internet. They aren't real evidence.

Yea, DE lets ignore their sources

References:

Brown, R.(1986) Social psychology (2nd. Ed.) N.Y.: Free Press. Harper
Dietrich, D.J. (1988) National renewal, anti-Semitism, and political continuity: A psychological assessment. Political Psychology 9, 385-411.
Heiden, K. (1939) One man against Europe Harmondsworth, Mddx.: Penguin
Madden, P. (1987) The social class origins of Nazi party members as determined by occupations, 1919-1933. Social Science Quarterly 68, 263-280.
Roberts, S.H. (1938) The house that Hitler built N.Y.: Harper.

But if you wish, I'll keep posting links until you find a source which suits you.

http://www.kimel.net/hitjew.html

http://www.whyguides.com/why-did-hitler-hate-the-jews.html

Let me guess, a Holocaust survivor isn't a credible source either?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/why-did-adolf-hitler-hate-the-jews-1.2618
http://www.bharatchronicle.com/why-hitler-hated-jews-4851
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Jews_Nazi_Germany.htm
Believe it or not, that's the prevalent theory for why Hitler hated the Jews, and one I've heard more than any others.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You mean sort of like you're lecturing a Russian who studied his own history, ON his own history?🙂 That makes so much sense Nai. Oh, the irony is amazing🙂

Oh. I thought you studied law. Didn't know that this requires studying multiple other subjects, like - I don't know - liberal arts studies usually do. Thanks for the clarification.

Btw good job ignoring the links.

Excuse me. What do those links proof or say? That Hitler wasn't a Christian. Good god. I knew that myself, although he belonged to the Catholic Church. The point is that he was religious and the answer your link gives is:

The short answer is a definite "maybe" or, more precisely, "probably neither." The looooong answer is somewhat more complicated.

Yeah. Holy mother of vague statements. That was a total slap in my face. The second link is even better than that:

"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian."

Lmfao. Thanks for proving my point, you moron. Hitler = religious. Get over it.

Also, since you're the most predictable one on this forum, I'm assuming you're going to backpeddle with your hypocrisy, throw out some insults, sarcasm, and continue ignoring the links because of your insecurities.

Provided that even the random internet crap you brought to the table supports my point I'd suggest you learn how to read instead of attempting to troll people on the internet.

And nothing you brought to the table does change the fact: Hitler's hatred against Jews was the outcome of an almost 2000 year history of antisemitism, which is a direct result of certain Christian belives. You can't ignore 2000 years of history and suggest that Hitler suddenly developed a completely new reason to hate the jews. He hated the Christian Churches too, even though he was a member of one of them. Neither of that does mean that he wasn't religious. Which was the original point of this debate.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. I thought you studied law. Didn't know that this requires studying multiple other subjects, like - I don't know - liberal arts studies usually do. Thanks for the clarification.

Excuse me. What do those links proof or say? That Hitler wasn't a Christian. Good god. I knew that myself, although he belonged to the Catholic Church. The point is that he was religious and the answer your link gives is:

The short answer is a definite "maybe" or, more precisely, "probably neither." The looooong answer is somewhat more complicated.

Yeah. Holy mother of vague statements. That was a total slap in my face. The second link is even better than that:

"The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian."

Lmfao. Thanks for proving my point, you moron. Hitler = religious. Get over it.

Good god, you don't even read. What is religious and anti Christian? YOU asserted that Nazi Germany wasn't Secular and Hitler's war with the Jews was a religious one(without showing any evidence).

Provided that even the random internet crap you brought to the table supports my point I'd suggest you learn how to read instead of attempting to troll people on the internet.

And nothing you brought to the table does change the fact: Hitler's hatred against Jews was the outcome of an almost 2000 year history of antisemitism, which is a direct result of certain Christian belives. You can't ignore 2000 years of history and suggest that Hitler suddenly developed a completely new reason to hate the jews. He hated the Christian Churches too, even though he was a member of one of them. Neither of that does mean that he wasn't religious. Which was the original point of this debate. [/B]

Prove it Nai. You claimed it was a religious war, yet most of the books, sites, claim Hitler's hatred of the Jews had nothing to do with Christianity, or religion for that fact. I mean you CAN keep reaching, but it's getting more pathetic with each subsequent post.

Edit: I'd also like for you to tell me what Hitler was "religious" about. I guess he was "religious" to the point where he wanted to declare himself the Supreme Being? Or the idea that Aryan blood is superior?(Hint: NOT a religious concept).

I look forward to you continuing your usual habit of deflecting, misdirection, insults, and providing little to no evidence to your claims.

Caught via Nai's quote:

DS
Also, since you're the most predictable one on this forum, I'm assuming you're going to backpeddle with your hypocrisy, throw out some insults, sarcasm, and continue ignoring the links because of your insecurities.

QFP.

Nai
Provided that even the random internet crap you brought to the table supports my point [...]

http://www.mtv.com/videos/misc/522184/2010-movie-awards-les-grossman-gives-robert-pattinson-style-tips.jhtml

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I'm not sure if that was the "backpeddling", or the misdirection I didn't mention. Thank you for proving my point.

I didn't know that citing your general ignorance towards liberal arts subjects - among them: history and philosophy - was "misdirection", given that we argue a topic that is historical and philosophical in nature. Maybe you've chosen the wrong field of study. Oh noes, you didn't, given that "Google" is an universal source of wisdom and truth.

Good god, you don't even read. What is religious and anti Christian? YOU asserted that Nazi Germany wasn't Secular and Hitler's war with the Jews was a religious one(without showing any evidence).

Good god. Do you even have an idea what "secular" means? For your information: It's a seperation of state and religion. Almost all quotes I've found on the very links you've posted, essentially come to the conclusion that Hitler wanted to replace one religion (Christianity) with another religion. Alfred Rosenberg, responsible for a great deal of the Nazi ideology, even wrote an entire book about that, called "Der Mythus des 20. Jahrhunderts" ("The Myth of the 20th Century"😉. In that book he describes a "religion of the blood" which is based on paganism and hinduism, incorporating typical points of Nazi-philosophy.

They still wanted to have a religion underpinning the state, which is the exact oposite of being "secular". In fact Hitler himself denied the idea of a secular Germany. The following quote from the Führer himself can be found in "The German Churches under Hitler. Background, Struggle, And Epilogue" by Ernst Christian Helmreich:

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."

Yeah. What a damn anti-religious guy Hitler was...

And I wonder how you demand "evidence" when all you bring to the table are internet pages with a clearly biased attitude, some entirely unscientific ones, who basically just compile some quotes against the thesis that Hitler was a christian. Way to "prove" your point. I could do the same but given that I suppose you're lacking in the German language, that would be rather unfair, right? And just to remind you: The question was if Hitler was "religious" which isn't limited to "being Christian"...

Prove it Nai. You claimed it was a religious war, yet most of the books, sites, claim Hitler's hatred of the Jews had nothing to do with Christianity, or religion for that fact. I mean you CAN keep reaching, but it's getting more pathetic with each subsequent post.

I wonder how a Jew can have so much ignorance for the history of antisemitism and antijudaism. Antisemitism is always coined by a religious motivation. How do you define the word "Jew" without mentioning religion? Sure. The "antisemitism" from the 18th century on tried to rationalize the hatred against Jews by focusing on non-religious reasons to do so. But you're ignoring the important fact: Without the former religious hatred against jews, there would have been no reason to "rationalize" said hatred.

Your sources show that Hitler had other motives to hate Jews besides the religious ones, which still doesn't mean you can seperate his hatred from religious topics. John Toland in his "Hitler: The Definitive Biography" (p.706) states that Hitler was "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God." Isn't that a religious reason to kill Jews? Hell. In "Mein Kampf" Hitler writes: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Yup. That sounds exactly like something that somebody who doesn't have a religious mindset would write...

Edit: I'd also like for you to tell me what Hitler was "religious" about. I guess he was "religious" to the point where he wanted to declare himself the Supreme Being? Or the idea that Aryan blood is superior?(Hint: NOT a religious concept).

- he believed in the existance of a higher being (clearly religious)
- he believed in the existance of providence (clearly religious)
- he believed that Jesus was actually an Aryan (believe in Jesus: religious)
- he liked paganism a lot (which is still a religion, even if you don't like it)

Regarding Jews:
- he believed in the idea that the Jews murdered God (Jesus) - clearly religious
- he happily cited Martin Luthers "On the Jews and their Lies" as source (and that work clearly represents a wealth of religious motivated hatred against Jews).

One could question how much of Hitler's public and private statements regarding religions does represent lies. I can only ask: Who cares? His party and all associated organisations (HJ, BDM and so on) incorporated religious motives into their daily practice. Denying that is simply stupid. Especially when you have something like a "Führerkult" existing...

From here I could go on explaining the similarities between political ideology and religious views (hint: "dogmatism"😉 but I'm sure you would completely deny that those exist.

I look forward to you continuing your usual habit of deflecting, misdirection, insults, and providing little to no evidence to your claims.

I look forward to you continuing your usual habit of asking the great Authority of Google for new input on subjects you have no idea about, to share the results of that search with us. This makes especially much sense if you have more sources to show that totally not support your personal view, which seems to be that the Third Reich was some entirely rational governing body that happily conducted genocide...

Originally posted by Borbarad
I didn't know that citing your general ignorance towards liberal arts subjects - among them: history and philosophy - was "misdirection", given that we argue a topic that is historical and philosophical in nature. Maybe you've chosen the wrong field of study. Oh noes, you didn't, given that "Google" is an universal source of wisdom and truth.

Good god. Do you even have an idea what "secular" means? For your information: It's a seperation of state and religion. Almost all quotes I've found on the very links you've posted, essentially come to the conclusion that Hitler wanted to replace one religion (Christianity) with another religion. Alfred Rosenberg, responsible for a great deal of the Nazi ideology, even wrote an entire book about that, called "Der Mythus des 20. Jahrhunderts" ("The Myth of the 20th Century"😉. In that book he describes a "religion of the blood" which is based on paganism and hinduism, incorporating typical points of Nazi-philosophy.

Premise #1(Your premise): So he stayed a member of the Catholic Church and encouraged other leading figures of Nazi Germany to do the same - for no reason. Why do you think that Hitler had something against Jews? No religious reason behind that?

Premise #2(What I quoted from google and you claimed it proved your point): "The Fuhrer is deeply religous, though completely anti-Christian."

Inference/Conclusion: Hitler's motives for joining the Church had NOTHING to do with his "religious" attitude, and most likely had to do with whatever propaganda he was using at the time.

^That's a little inference LSAT question and and answer for you.

They still wanted to have a religion underpinning the state, which is the exact oposite of being "secular". In fact Hitler himself denied the idea of a secular Germany. The following quote from the Führer himself can be found in "The German Churches under Hitler. Background, Struggle, And Epilogue" by Ernst Christian Helmreich:

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."

Yeah. What a damn anti-religious guy Hitler was...

And I wonder how you demand "evidence" when all you bring to the table are internet pages with a clearly biased attitude, some entirely unscientific ones, who basically just compile some quotes against the thesis that Hitler was a christian. Way to "prove" your point. I could do the same but given that I suppose you're lacking in the German language, that would be rather unfair, right? And just to remind you: The question was if Hitler was "religious" which isn't limited to "being Christian"...

I wonder how a Jew can have so much ignorance for the history of antisemitism and antijudaism. Antisemitism is always coined by a religious motivation. How do you define the word "Jew" without mentioning religion? Sure. The "antisemitism" from the 18th century on tried to rationalize the hatred against Jews by focusing on non-religious reasons to do so. But you're ignoring the important fact: Without the former religious hatred against jews, there would have been no reason to "rationalize" said hatred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilizations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.[1] A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."

Please look up the definition, and tell me what religious motivation Hitler had for hating their background(hint: there was none because he wasn't a practicing Christian nor can you pinpoint any of his religious beliefs).

Your sources show that Hitler had other motives to hate Jews besides the religious ones, which still doesn't mean you can seperate his hatred from religious topics. John Toland in his "Hitler: The Definitive Biography" (p.706) states that Hitler was "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God." Isn't that a religious reason to kill Jews? Hell. In "Mein Kampf" Hitler writes: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Yup. That sounds exactly like something that somebody who doesn't have a religious mindset would write...

- he believed in the existance of a higher being (clearly religious)
- he believed in the existance of providence (clearly religious)
- he believed that Jesus was actually an Aryan (believe in Jesus: religious)
- he liked paganism a lot (which is still a religion, even if you don't like it)

Regarding Jews:
- he believed in the idea that the Jews murdered God (Jesus) - clearly religious
- he happily cited Martin Luthers "On the Jews and their Lies" as source (and that work clearly represents a wealth of religious motivated hatred against Jews).

One could question how much of Hitler's public and private statements regarding religions does represent lies. I can only ask: Who cares? His party and all associated organisations (HJ, BDM and so on) incorporated religious motives into their daily practice. Denying that is simply stupid. Especially when you have something like a "Führerkult" existing...

From here I could go on explaining the similarities between political ideology and religious views (hint: "dogmatism"😉 but I'm sure you would completely deny that those exist.

I look forward to you continuing your usual habit of asking the great Authority of Google for new input on subjects you have no idea about, to share the results of that search with us. This makes especially much sense if you have more sources to show that totally not support your personal view, which seems to be that the Third Reich was some entirely rational governing body that happily conducted genocide... [/B]

You quoted even less sources than I did, and completely ignored my sources, or rather passed them off as arbitrary. IF you're going to attempt to put on this intellectual facade, I expect you to be objective. LOL@my personal view btw. I can use all of your insults right back at you, and watch you back peddle in the midst of being accused of using double standards.

Edit: In the event that you keep calling my bluff, you'll be happy to know that I can easily keep up with you because we both don't have to put on charades anymore🙂 I look forward to your civil and sound rebuttal🙂

I know its pages back, but i've had no internet in days. I have never seen a better acting job than Heath Ledger's Joker. It was breathtaking. I have never seen an actor that immersed in a role. That,as an actor, is exactly what I aim for. I can't speak on the role itself to rank bad guys, but Ledger played the best villian I've ever seen.

I say this from the perspective of a guy who never liked Ledger, kept hearing what an amazing job he did, and assumed they were only saying that because he died. Then I went and saw it, from a skeptics point of view, mind you, I was already forming arguments on why he wasn't that good, and he just FLOORED me.