Originally posted by truejedi
This is RN taking the high road of declaring victory. Because THAT means he's right.
I understand that this is an emotional topic for you, but that is not an accurate description of me. At all. If you have been paying the smallest amount of attention for the past three years then you will realize how silly that will look. That doesn't describe my method of discourse in the slightest.
Spoiler:
I'm not a Gideon sock.
Originally posted by truejedi
So.... that makes you not responsible for this? Because you traditionally don't do it?
You put that assertion that you quoted above at the forefront of the reasons to discount my post, when it is not an issue in the least. It is an admonition, the presence of which has no bearing on the validity of my points. The "tone" that I adopted was not a reason that I used to support my rightness, and so attacking my "tone" is not a way to show that I am wrong.
Going personal is not the way to win this.
Originally posted by Zampanó
That makes your ad hominem (the meaning of which I am using very precisely, here) utterly worthless.You put that assertion that you quoted above at the forefront of the reasons to discount my post, when it is not an issue in the least. It is an admonition, the presence of which has no bearing on the validity of my points. The "tone" that I adopted was not a reason that I used to support my rightness, and so attacking my "tone" is not a way to show that I am wrong.
Going personal is not the way to win this.
Poor tactics all around.
tj, you've asked several times, with increasing incredulity, why I do not believe that Islam is a violent religion. Each time, you've posted a link, usually to MSNBC.com, with the latest debacle from the Mideast. I'll admit, as I have in my real life persona, that the violence that I see throughout that region scares me. It is a violent culture clash, and such events are rarely settled peacefully. As I have said offline, I sincerely hope that the reckoning does not take place during my time--I believe that I can offer more lasting contributions in times of peace than of war. So I believe that I can empathize with your antipathy for the religion of Islam. At times I give in to that impulse too; it is very easy to see the events in the Mideast as the actions of a singular enemy trying to destroy everything you hold dear.
There is, for me, a more powerful force than those emotions, however. I try to live my life as though the truth is more important than how I feel about it. And the truth of the matter is that nearly seven million Muslims live peacefully in the United States of America every day, without trying to blow anything up or destroy our freedoms. 65,300,000 Muslims in China live without revolting against a government that allows women to go to school. If Islam was an inherently violent religion that absolutely cannot be allowed to exist in the real world, these communities would behave differently. If your evaluation of Islam were accurate, we would expect to see significant clashes between Muslims in America and the Judicial system. No such refutations of American authority are found in the press. If your evaluation of Islam were accurate, we would expect to see most Islamic nations, not just the ones in the Mideast, to experience significant religious unrest as different religions interact. Indonesia, despite having 86.1% of its population declared Muslims and a minority of 9% Christians, does not experience widespread religious oppression. In fact, the Indonesian constitution stipulates freedom of religion. From a purely factual perspective, the predictions that would result from the idea that "Islam is a violent religion" are simply inaccurate. That worldview is not an accurate one.
Having taken up the burden of responding, I am left responsible for the slurry of links that you've posted--most of which involving some sort of religiously inspired violence--over the past few months. There are a few common themes in the stories you've posted: a mob is outraged over some perceived slight, and takes to the streets to demonstrate. A vigilante takes revenge over some perceived slight. Some cleric somewhere in the wastelands of Afghanistan makes a ruling that is backwards and vile and barbaric. All of them include forces that you leave entirely out of your evaluation. The most obvious example is poverty. The US Military is not up against some elite fighting force. It isn't SEALs vs. Israeli Commandoes. It is SEALs vs. peasants. The F22, peerless fighting machine, death on wings, is being pitted against farmers who consider themselves lucky to double their goat herd. Poverty is rampant, and its contribution cannot extracted from the whole shitstorm that is the Mideast. Another factor that I have yet to see you concede is the demographics of terrorism. The networks are filled, at least today, by people whose lives have been shattered by years of war, family members terrified of the Taliban/Al Quaeda, and corruption on a level that puts Blagoiavich to shame. Those are some social reasons that come to mind without even a glimmer of Google-Fu. Others, people with a more detailed understanding of the region, would be able to tell you about the effects of generations of intertribal warfare and the fierce divisions between Sunni and Shi'a sects, which mirrors in the microcosm the general mistreatment of the Kurds and good lord the entire region is just a morass of social quandaries that are entirely separate from the religious situation.
Historically my explanations can be even broader. The biggest redflag for the region was probably the decline of the Ottoman Empire; various economic crises and a shitton of local uprisings brought the "Old Man of Europe" to his knees. That fall has yet to conclude--the region has basically never recovered from that blow. It didn't help that two World Wars swept the productive capacity of a generation or two away from rebuilding, or that the Colonial powers were drawing lines on a map without even bothering to ask the people on the ground what the aftereffects of various partition plans would be. This is still a gross oversimplification, because the pressures of Soviet Russia on consumer good availability and the whole dustup between Pakistan and India (not to mention the AIDS epidemic from Africa) are all pressures that I haven't even begun to incorporate. None of this is religious.
Blaming Islam is a gross oversimplification, especially since we've seen it flourish in other parts of the world where the situation on the ground is not inherently shitty. Good science isolates the variable in question. In so far as is possible, we can do that by comparing Islam from within and without the Middle East. That comparison absolutely does not suggest that Islam is the primary cause of strife in the region.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Jesus Christ... I know this harms no one in a practical sense, but a simple addition of adding a number box next to each option would do just as well. How many things need to be pointlessly changed in the name of "hurt feelings"?Still not as stupid as when they eliminated the word "actress", though.
Also a good point.
Originally posted by ZampanóAm I a bad person if I agree wholeheartedly with this article, but could still perform the acts it defines as tragic with no personal emotional conflict?
I encourage you to read this link before responding.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html?ref=fb&src=sp
Christianity is so violent and barbaric. 🙁
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/09/westboro-baptist-church-arizona_n_806319.html?ref=fb&src=spChristianity is so violent and barbaric. 🙁
Your first mistake was using anything from Huffingtonpost.
It's funny arguing with an anti gun nut. Claiming that guns should be banned for the same reason nukes should be banned---check.. Apparently if I think nukes should be banned, I am automatically subscribing to the position that guns should be banned because they're both weapons!!!
Lack of distinctions.. tsk tsk
Thank God.. Start beating those idiots up.