Originally posted by Regret
Agreed, but then we have the question of the origin of God, and since he is soo complex, he must have been designed as well, since complex intelligent things cannot come from nothing.
That's when I.D. rolls onto theology and says 'God is the alpha and the omega', no further questioning is needed. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00.
Originally posted by ushomefreeUnlikely.
Its important to note--or ponder--that if an "Intelligent Agent" (IA) created the Cosmos, the IA would not be governed by the laws of physics we human beings are (within the Cosmos). The IA does not require a creator! Let me explain.We must use caution when applying humanistic terms to an IA; the IA, within the bounds of all logic, "transcends" the Cosmos. In other words, the IA is "outside the box." We are able to reach this conclusion based on phenomena we human beings experience in our lives. Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwhices do not create themselves. Albert Einstein published this feat with his theory General Relativity.
The IA--within this premise--would have characteristics that supersede the Cosmos--being "eternal" for instance. The IA is not governed by the laws of physics we human beings experience (not to mention test and measure).
Dismissing this notion would result in a mathematical nightmare--a number repeating itself. The IA "lineage" would be eternal--never reaching a beginning (or end). I think an IA being "eternal" is a safe assumption--an "eternal" IA created the Cosmos; period.
If you take the time to study irreducible complexity, specified complexity, and the anthropic principle objectively, your opinion may change.
Even then. Why not a cosmic egg of sorts that is not governed by the laws of our universe. What about all sort of none intelligent alternatives not bound to laws of physics as we know it?
Originally posted by Regret
I do not see how that is relevant to the question of origin.Also, I am unsure if time really exists, or if this moment is all there is in reality.
Like the Twilight Zone episode (and similar spin-offs) where the protagonist is stuck in one hour of time, doomed to forever repeat it and be aware (except you'd be ignorant of it) that he is doing so?
Originally posted by Regret
I do not see how that is relevant to the question of origin.Also, I am unsure if time really exists, or if this moment is all there is in reality.
Outside of biology, more theories about the origin of life emerge. For instance, time does exist--and this correlates with the anthropic principle. If you have bodies of mass, where do you put it? And when? Mass, space, and time are dependent upon one another, which indicates that all arose at the same precise moment! We are forced to conclude:
(A) something came from "Something" or
(B) something cam from "Nothing."
If (A) is true, whatever that something is, at minimum, we must conclude that it "transcends" our dimensions (and is not governed by them). The Intelligent Agent (or whatever) created them! If you can't read between the lines, I highly recommend you purchase a book on the topic, namely, the theory of general reletivity.
If (B) is true, help me understand how "something" comes from "nothing."
Originally posted by RobtardNo, just not sure that the past exists any more or whether the future exists yet, in any sense of the word exist. Time is just a description of sequence of previous and future events, but is there really anything other than what is occurring now?
Like the Twilight Zone episode (and similar spin-offs) where the protagonist is stuck in one hour of time, doomed to forever repeat it and be aware (except you'd be ignorant of it) that he is doing so?
Originally posted by ushomefree(A) Then the question is how did that intelligent agent arise? How did it arise in some other dimension? An intelligent agent does not address origin still.
Outside of biology, more theories about the origin of life emerge. For instance, time does exist--and this correlates with the anthropic principle. If you have bodies of mass, where do you put it? And when? Mass, space, and time are dependent upon one another, which indicates that all arose at the same precise moment! We are forced to conclude:(A) something came from "Something" or
(B) something cam from "Nothing."
If (A) is true, whatever that something is, at minimum, we must conclude that it "transcends" our dimensions (and is not governed by them). The Intelligent Agent (or whatever) created them! If you can't read between the lines, I highly recommend you purchase a book on the topic, namely, the theory of general reletivity.
If (B) is true, help me understand how "something" comes from "nothing."
(B) No something ever came from nothing.
If an Intelligent Agent (or whatever) created the dimensions in which human beings inhabit, we must conclude that the Intelligent Agent is NOT governed (or bound) by them. An Intelligent Agent transcends them! You are making the mistake of applying the dimensional characteristics (in which you and I occupy) to the dimensions the Intelligent Agent occupies. You might ask: What are the dimensions that the Intelligent Agent resides in? I don't have the slightest clue! But we can make the assumption, at minimum, that the characteristics are completely different. Understand?
Originally posted by ushomefreeIf the intelligent agent created something, creation is a part of the governing principles of the "dimension" that the intelligent agent exists. Given that creation can occur there, one must therefore assume the intelligent agent may also have been created by the same principle, once again circular. I am only applying the characteristics that the intelligent agent has shown to have in your scenario.
If an Intelligent Agent (or whatever) created the dimensions in which human beings inhabit, we must conclude that the Intelligent Agent is NOT governed (or bound) by them. An Intelligent Agent transcends them! You are making the mistake of applying the dimensional characteristics (in which you and I occupy) to the dimensions the Intelligent Agent occupies. You might ask: What are the dimensions that the Intelligent Agent resides in? I don't have the slightest clue! But we can make the assumption, at minimum, that the characteristics are completely different. Understand?
The point is the same as my initial post on this thread.
Originally posted by Regret
Agreed, but then we have the question of the origin of God, and since he is soo complex, he must have been designed as well, since complex intelligent things cannot come from nothing.
To translate into Philosophy...
We're looking for "First cause" in the chain of events. We can then take the argument to the Aristotle idea of "The Prime Mover". I feel this is where ID should be directed..rather than shifting into theory or religion.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarfAgreed.
To translate into Philosophy...We're looking for "First cause" in the chain of events. We can then take the argument to the Aristotle idea of "The Prime Mover". I feel this is where ID should be directed..rather than shifting into theory or religion.
It is the Homunculus concept of you have a little man in your head controling your body, yet who is controllig the body of the little man in your head? Does your spirit have a spirit that directs it?
Originally posted by Regret
Does your spirit have a spirit that directs it?
That will takes us into metaphysics (points to Aristotle...again) and from there it's a matter of whether we accept or reject metaphysics. We just continue to philosophy from here on. And we can't say we're shifting the arguement elsewhere...because ID resides somewhere in the pack.