Sin is right on this matter I think, when the one ring was destroyed the three elven rings lost their power. And so follows quote from my favourite place "The Encyclopedia of Arda"
Unknown to the Mírdain, 'Annatar' was none other than the Dark Lord Sauron. In the fires of Mount Doom in the dark land of Mordor, he forged a Ring of his own, to enslave the holders of the other Rings of Power. Filled with much of his own native power, this was the Ruling Ring, the One Ring that would make him Lord of all the Rings. But Sauron had not reckoned on the Elves forging their own Rings of Power; as he took up the One Ring for the first time, they became aware of it, and took off their own Rings to foil his ambition.
Sauron in his anger swept out of Mordor with a great army. The land of Eregion was overwhelmed and destroyed and Celebrimbor was slain. The Three Rings of the Elves had already been sent away, but the Dark Lord claimed the remaining Rings of Power1. Nine of these he used to subvert nine Men to his cause; this was the origin of the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths. Seven he gave to the Dwarves with the same purpose, though with much less success, as the Dwarves proved resistant to their magic.
Centuries later, at the end of the Second Age, Sauron fell in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, but he was lost in the River Anduin, and the Ruling Ring was lost with him. So the Elves could once again use the power of their Three Rings, as they did through the Third Age. At last, the One Ring was found again, and Sauron's quest to retrieve it resulted in the War of the Ring. Ultimately, the Ring was destroyed in the place where Sauron had forged it nearly five thousand years earlier. With that, the remaining Rings of Power, including even the Elves' Three Rings, lost the power they had held.
Originally posted by thefallen544
Hrm admittedly so, but I don't think Gandalf revealed that he bore Narya to any of the ones he travelled with, not even Aragorn. If Sauron was to capture any of the fellowship and such a thing was to slip. Or if the word that Gandalf carried one of the Elven rings then Sauron would undoubtedly come for it the three elven rings being the only ones to escape his grasp. Thats just my theory, I also do not presume that a Balrog a fellow Maia would be quaking in the proverbial boots at Gandalf proclaiming he has a magic ring.Although thats just my opinion, I have more of a leaning towards the light of the sun, originating from the trees in Valinor and thus his power of servitude to the lords of the west versus the blackness of the dark fire. It seems to me actually more of a statement of defiance and threat in battle to proclaim the names of the Valar Lords of the West, than to imply in battle "I have a magic ring".
One final quote from the Encyclopedia of Arda "Gandalf bore it in secret for more than two thousand years, until after the Downfall of Barad-dûr and the destruction of Sauron." in referring to Narya, as said before I don't think he told anyone he had it only three other people would have known truly what Gandalf carried, Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel.
I'm not gonna argue with you on this cause we can't tell what tolkien was thinking. both theories are good ones. I don't know too much about this "encyclopedia of arda" thing. I have read from it myself. But I can't get where they get their facts from. It cant be only the books. I would recognise them then..
galadriel reveals her ring to frodo because he's also a ring bearer. but sam was told to.
quote: (galadriel) "did you see my ring?"
(sam)" no, lady,' to tell you the truth, I wondered what you where talking about. I saw a star falling through your fingers.
so he didn't see anything, but galadriel told him right. so if she trusted sam with it. why couldn't gandalf say it to the balrog.
and to the "I have a magic ring" thing. if the ring contains power that would help him in battle, why not say it? cause narya is the ring of fire right? now this is a wild guess, but... it is possible that the ring gives the power of "light fire" the light of laurelin in the shape of fire. it is "the flame of anor" after all. It is possible that it's the same thing.
Originally posted by thefallen544
Sin is right on this matter I think, when the one ring was destroyed the three elven rings lost their power. And so follows quote from my favourite place "The Encyclopedia of Arda"Unknown to the Mírdain, 'Annatar' was none other than the Dark Lord Sauron. In the fires of Mount Doom in the dark land of Mordor, he forged a Ring of his own, to enslave the holders of the other Rings of Power. Filled with much of his own native power, this was the Ruling Ring, the One Ring that would make him Lord of all the Rings. But Sauron had not reckoned on the Elves forging their own Rings of Power; as he took up the One Ring for the first time, they became aware of it, and took off their own Rings to foil his ambition.
Sauron in his anger swept out of Mordor with a great army. The land of Eregion was overwhelmed and destroyed and Celebrimbor was slain. The Three Rings of the Elves had already been sent away, but the Dark Lord claimed the remaining Rings of Power1. Nine of these he used to subvert nine Men to his cause; this was the origin of the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths. Seven he gave to the Dwarves with the same purpose, though with much less success, as the Dwarves proved resistant to their magic.
Centuries later, at the end of the Second Age, Sauron fell in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, but he was lost in the River Anduin, and the Ruling Ring was lost with him. So the Elves could once again use the power of their Three Rings, as they did through the Third Age. At last, the One Ring was found again, and Sauron's quest to retrieve it resulted in the War of the Ring. Ultimately, the Ring was destroyed in the place where Sauron had forged it nearly five thousand years earlier. With that, the remaining Rings of Power, including even the Elves' Three Rings, lost the power they had held.
it's in the book and the movie too. galadriel says "...for if you fail, then we are laid bare to the enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and loth-lorien will fade, and the tides of time will fade away.
Only for the purpose of furthering the debate because I do find it very interesting I am more of the feeling that only Maia have the Flame of Anor as they are the direct servants of the west. As the ring was crafted by Celebrimbor I think it would be above him to capture the power and brilliance of the light of Laurelin. Admittedly Fëanor captured the light of the two trees before they were destroyed, creating the Simarils but this is the only reported case of the light being captured of the two great trees.
Yes, Galadriel told Sam she had a ring, however she did not from that passage mention its name or its power. Also compared to Gandalf she was relatively more protected from attacks from the enemy than any of the fellowship should her possession of such a jewel be discovered. Gandalf would also have to be wary from inner betrayal, whilst noble in spirit if Boromir for example knew Gandalf held an elven ring of power he may be drawn to such a weapon, whilst that is unlikely Galadriel in my view had a lot less to risk.
I think the EoA gets its information a lot from the notes and letters of Tolkien the annotations he made over the years, personal replies he has made to letters and the expanded history books. Rather than from just the base text itself. Whilst some of it can be disputed to how canon it is most of it is reliable, however individual theories are good.
Well the books never go into detail on how Gandalf defeated the Balrog (which ended in the death of Gandalf). He could have kept his distance for all we know but most likely he was able to slay the beast could have something to do with Gandalf being a Maia spirit and all. After all they are from the same Order and we don't know what Gandalf actually looks like. He came to Middle-Earth and resembled an old man but his true form was never revealed through the book.
True, the only reference I can find to Olorin's treue appearance is a passage in "Unfinished Tales" page 508 in my copy regarding The Istari
"Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin who was clad in grey"
Furthermore as a bonus it points at the start of Saurman's (Curumo) possible jelousy of Gandalf. "and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word 'third'😉. But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third'; and Curumo remembered it.
yeah I've benn wondering a lot about the statement that the isdari are maiar. the only thing in the books that I can find that could proove that goes something like this.. men of the same high order as the lords of the west.... and to say that isdari are maiar because of that... well it doesn't convince me... I know that wikipedia and EoA says so. still don't know why.
well I'm going on vacation for a couple of weeks and will not be able to answer too often. thanks for good debating tough...
until we meet again. Namaríi
V.A.N.I.C.E
"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" 'None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should rise again'
We can also assume that he looks like a man, and men do not live for as long as Gandalf has. Mention of the Istari has been made during counsel with Elrond and the White Council well before the ring was even found when at first Saurons shadow started to grow.
Seeing as Aragorn died aged 210 and that was exceptionally long for a mortal man to live (the eldest mortal man living until 500 was Elros brother of Elrond who chose to be mortal rather than the first born) just taking this into account the Istari cannot be mortal. This leaves two choices either they are Elf kind or they are Maiar clothed in the bodies of men.
Indeed the fact that Gandalf is able to return from death points to the involvement of the Lords of the West or maybe even Eru himself *I believe it may have to be direct involvement from Eru whom Gandalf met outside the circles of the earth I think only Eru can give life and gift upon it free will etc* Whilst Elves are meant to be released from the halls of waiting after death such a swift return is unlikely. However as a Maiar servant of the Valar chances are Gandalf could be returned in times of such need.
Also in Appendix B the Istari are mentioned in c 1100 of the third age they find an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldor.
In 2050 King Earnur is challenged by the witch king is lost and rule of Gondor passes over to the Stewards. In the year 2890 Bilbo is born in the Shire. September 29th 3021 Gandalf departs over the sea and the third age ends.
Sorry for double post edit limit expired and I think this is relevant and important.
well only because we don't know really doesn't make him maiar, and as i said, I don't really trust wikipedia or EoA. There must be more creatures in arda then is told in the books.
there are more examples where the gods have decided other peoples faiths. for example elrond and elros. they chose their race. elrond became elfkind and elros human. this does'nt make them maiar.
if isdari, the balrogs, the dragons and so on were maiar, they would be able to use certain powers, for example change shapes. none of them does so.
and your last post, how does it make isdari maiar?
Men do not live 2000 years, and Gandalf was not of Elf kind. Plus the fact that Cirdan of the havens greeted them when they crossed the sea from the western land and knew them to be sent by the lords of the west. Yes the gods allowed Elrond and Elros to chose their fate, because of the sacrifice their parents made Earendil and Elwing, both of whom had the same fate to chose be of the firstborn and never leave the undying lands or be of mortal born and die.
I can hardly hold such a choice in the same light as Gandalf dying and being sent back from the dead by Eru himself. And why would Balrogs or and Maiar be able to change their shape freely, the Istari were under orders not to use the full extent of their power so they came clothed in the bodies of old men, they didn't chop and change at will.
Rather than content the point of my argument, please and I mean this in no ill tone state your argument for the Istari not being Maiar, one could argue that they are "other creatures" all day but without any proof it is just speculation. Whilst we have proof that Maiar and Valar existed, we have their names we have Gandalfs name as a spirit of the Maiar "Olorin" if we wish to draw specifics. By sheer volume of "evidence" alone it supports the view they were Maiar over some other unknown nameless entity.
A further quote from "Unfinished Tales" admittedly some of the tales from this book are incomplete but still canon and writted by Tolkein and edited by Christopher Tolkein.
"and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, the often consorted). Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West"
"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years"
"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly"
"Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word "third"😉. But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not as the third'; and Curumo remembered it"
"The note ends with the statement Curumo [Saurman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend. "
Tge chapter also draws relations between Maiar and Valar quoting Olorin to Manwe and Varda.
And the last quotes atop of page 510 on my version, "We must assume that they [the Istari] were all Maiar, that is persons of the 'angelic' order, though not necessarily of the same rank. The Maiar were 'spirits', but capable of self-incarnation, and could take 'humane' (especially Elvish) forms."
"Other writings are concerned exclusively with Gandalf (Olorin, Mithrandir)."
"Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf "
One more note Gandalf said again 'Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten' when he spoke to the Hobbits and Gimli in Minas Tirith after the coronation of King Elessar: see 'The Quest of Erebor',p. 426 (my version) of Unfinished Tales.
I should also say a speech by Faramir on page 433 in my version of The Two Towers "'and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.'"
I've read the unfinished tales...
the first thin you say only means that they can be neither elves nor men. I never said they were. and things are slightly leaning towards ``they´´ being something "else".
we don't know if it was eru who awoke gandalf and still if it was it doesn't make him a maia.
the name Olorin is gandalf's name in valinor, not his name as a maia.
and the Christopher tolkien quote about them being all maiar but not of the same high rank... well then they are not really maiar in my eyes. we should give these spirits a name of their one lol.. these not-so-powerfull maiars.
conclusively, istari are some kind of spirit, perhaps related to maiar, sent by the valar to watch over midle earth... so personally I think it's a bad choice to call them maiar for certain because we can't really say that they are.. even if it's a good guess. they certanly don't have the powers which I relate to maiar, they are not as powerful as for examle ossë or uinen. and I don't see why EoA and wikipedia writes as if it was a fact.
then we have the balrogs and dragons which we know very little about.. are they maia? I wouldn't say so either.
ok I've found proof about gandalf being maia. gandalf says in the two towers: " Olòrin was my name when I was young in the west whom now is forgotten".. or something like that... I've only got the Swedish version so maybe I've translated it wrong...
then I found Olòrin is mentioned in silmarillion about maiar, Olòrin was the visest of maiar...
this convinces me.. still the balrog question remains unanswered.
thanks for good debating. hope I'll be seing more of this in the future.
👆