Chemical weapons found in iraq.

Originally posted by jaden101
so genocide isnt against international law

a: it was put forward as 1 of the reasons to oust the regime

b: there were several UN resolutions demanding that Iraq release both its own political prisoners and not forgetting the 10.000 kuwaiti's that to this day still have never been found

c: it is against international law

It is most certainly against international law, but it was not these resolutions that the Coalition pursued with such intensity in the lead up. It was about the WMDs. That was what was in the media. That was what they lectured the Security council on. And it was on the question of WMDs that Iraq, while pigheaded, didn't exactly break the resolution.

the people who disregarded them in the first place we political opposition...making them seem morally bankrupt if they were against stopping a genocidal dictator on the basis that killing hundreds of thousands of his own people wasn't a good enough idea to stop him

Now this goes into politics, and of course such questions lead to others - where did he aquire his chemical weapons that he used against the Kurds? How did he get to power (by opposing Iranian and communist forces the US didn't want in), why didn't anyone actually stop him when he was actually doing these things?

But that isn't the question here, as you yourself pointed out earlier such a cause was not politically popular, and thus was not the one trumpeted. And besides it is bloody (literally) ham fisted. He killed many innocent people during his reign. It is then becomes oxymoron to say it is helping his people when they are suffering similar hardships now - they continue to die, only now it's so much more random. They are still malnourished, the educated are still getting out causing a massive brain drain. We ousted a dictator who had done terrible things in the past and in the process made it almost as dangerous for your average Iraqi.

Now I don't see how the political opposition are to blame here. Bush, Blair etc chose their stance. Chose what would get the people on their side. Their opponents didn't right their speeches. Didn't come up with dodgy intelligence. They did whoever point out that they were wrong when they were in fact proven to be wrong.

the people who inspected the weapons found deduced them to be "lower hazard" so your analogy is completely irrelevant

Your missing the point of it. This is what you and others seem to be implying - that these "lower hazard" chemical weapons are somehow evidence of Iraqi duplicity, their lies and proof of the Coalitions first claims - in essence the hidden forces I refereed to. However in reality there is no evidence that they were still considered a part of the Iraqi arsenal. No evidence that they could have been used. No evidence that the Iraqi military even knew of them at the time - they are few number, poor in quality and degraded - the kind of thing that suggests that they had been forgotten about, lost. And I mean really - if Iraq saw fit to destroy 99% of the arsenal years ago, and cease building new WMDss why on earth keep a few around and lot them rot in some out of the way place. What could possibly be achieved by this?

Maybe another WWII example. Following the routing and subsequent victory over the German military by Allied forces, weapons and munitions continued to turn up over the years from where they had been hidden or let fall during the retreats. Now, 10 years on half a dozen V2 rockets are discovered in a poor state buried out 40 miles from Berlin. Germany of course is not allowed such things, being required to destroy or hand over all weapons at the end of the war.

These rockets were not evidence of the Germans breaking the rules, nor could any of the powers have cried foul, that the Germans still had weapons they weren't allowed. Why? Because they didn't actually have them any more, they just happened to be there. It wasn't a plot, simply the discovery of debris from another time.

I have no reason to stick up for the the Iraqi regime. However I can't sugar coat facts to make them fit a political stance - this is not evidence of the things the Coalition claimed before the war. And they know it, hence the fact they aren't even going around saying "hey, we found those weapons" - because if anything this shows they were wrong - Saddam wasn't stockpiling, wasn't developing.

This whole argument is incredibly irrevelant. It doesn't matter why we went there anymore, the fact is we ARE there, Now what are we going to do about it? How are we going to get out of there? How are we going to NOT make it the quagmire that it is rapidly becoming.

Also, like I said before, don't delude yourself, if America cared at all bout genocide and the well being of mankind, we would be all up in Africa, yet we are not.

africa didnt steal our oil

Well there's the kicker, eh?

Originally posted by PVS
africa didnt steal our oil

tell that to Nigeria who are a repugnant african country with a huge amount of oil

It is most certainly against international law, but it was not these resolutions that the Coalition pursued with such intensity in the lead up. It was about the WMDs. That was what was in the media. That was what they lectured the Security council on. And it was on the question of WMDs that Iraq, while pigheaded, didn't exactly break the resolution.

actually the UN recognises that they broke all 16 resolutions concerning solely the WMD's

as for the human rights issues...i cant comment on what was focused on the in the US but in the UK i remember hearing our government talk about it several times although the press did focus more on the WMD issue

where did he aquire his chemical weapons that he used against the Kurds?

if you're refering in particular to halabjah i also thought that but i believe it was proven that the Iranian were actually responsible for it

Your missing the point of it. This is what you and others seem to be implying - that these "lower hazard" chemical weapons are somehow evidence of Iraqi duplicity, their lies and proof of the Coalitions first claims - in essence the hidden forces I refereed to. However in reality there is no evidence that they were still considered a part of the Iraqi arsenal. No evidence that they could have been used. No evidence that the Iraqi military even knew of them at the time

and no evidence that they didn't so i guess we are both guilty of conjecture in regards to this...but again i point you to Georges Sada's book about the issue of the WMD's...one of Saddams top military advisors

I can't sugar coat facts to make them fit a political stance -

yet you can ignore facts in order to make them fit your own political view

Ok, so... NO WMD have been found in Iraq. Period. Anyone claiming otherwise has to get me a link to a site that says that WMD has been found in Iraq. Old rusty barrels possibly once containing something 15 years ago do not count!

2515 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq by now...
By October 2004 100,000 Iraqi civilians had been killed
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596
What the current number is... I don't know...

Originally posted by The Omega
Ok, so... NO WMD have been found in Iraq. Period. Anyone claiming otherwise has to get me a link to a site that says that WMD has been found in Iraq. Old rusty barrels possibly once containing something 15 years ago do not count!

2515 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq by now...
By October 2004 100,000 Iraqi civilians had been killed
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596
What the current number is... I don't know...

the lancet survey is extremely flawed...it surveys 1000 houses out of a population of over 40,000,000 people...

the iraq body count has relied on counted victims from every reported incident from the media, local hospitals and foregin aid workers from across the country and is far more likely to e accurate

Old rusty barrels possibly once containing something 15 years ago do not count!

strange way to put it given that they were actual artillery shells still containing Sarin gas

Originally posted by Deano
Resume

GEORGE W. BUSH 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue Washington , DC 20520

EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE

LAW ENFORCEMENT

I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine , in 1976 for driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

MILITARY

I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam

COLLEGE

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. I was a cheerleader.

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career in the oil business in Midland , Texas , in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas . The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money. With the help of my father and our friends in the oil industry, including Enron CEO Ken Lay, I was elected governor of Texas .

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union .

During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida , and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock market.

In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, had a Chevron oil tanker named after her.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President. I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.

My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.

I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution.

More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip- offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history.

I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law. I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S . "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I set the record for fewest numbers of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.

I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period. After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protests against any person in the history of mankind.

I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families-in-wartime.

In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq and then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD. I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden [sic] to justice.

RECORDS AND REFERENCES

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

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PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN THE 2006 MIDTERM ELECTIONS. PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERY VOTER YOU KNOW.

and here's a little graph to show people something bad.

Bush has the record of the biggest decrease, the lowest budget, the quickest rate and I bet he thinks that's good. 😂

It's not the United States responsibility to remove dictators from their power. It's the responsibility of the people being oppressed. America earned it's freedom from tyranny, and so should every other country with citizens who feel they are being treated like shit.

America needs to learn to keep it's nose in it's own business and the defense of itself and it's allies. Did Iran invade or attack the US or it's allies? No. Did they murder their own people? Yea...so? This "promoting democracy" is not a reason to invade another country, in fact, it's hypocritical. Invasion is the act of an Empire, which we are not. If the Iraqis wanted to be liberated, they'd liberate themselves. Civil war and revolution is part of any country's development.

America needs to learn to keep it's nose in it's own business and the defense of itself and it's allies. Did Iran invade or attack the US or it's allies? No. Did they murder their own people? Yea...so? This "promoting democracy" is not a reason to invade another country, in fact, it's hypocritical. Invasion is the act of an Empire, which we are not. If the Iraqis wanted to be liberated, they'd liberate themselves. Civil war and revolution is part of any country's development.

i dont know what you know about the aftermath of the 1st Gulf war but there was a shi'ite upsrising that tried to oust saddam husseins regime and begged for help from the US and its allies...the American public didnt want it and left it open for Saddam to ruthlessly crush the uprising and triggering the ethnic cleansing mentioned previously in the thread

if america doesnt want the responsibility of other nations affairs then it should stop using its economic power to bully every country on the planet including its allies

i dont see what your point about Iran is in relation to Iraq because the answer to both, did Iraq attack and invades its neighbours and Allies of the US and did they kill their own people is yes

Civil war and revolution is part of any country's development.

civil war and revolution is virtually impossible in countries where the disparity of power between the oppressed and the oppressor is insurmountable as it was in Iraq

"promoting democracy"

so once again what about stopping genocide and invasion of other countries...is it worth ending the threat of that for good?