Originally posted by Regret
This does contradict the idea of original sin. What is the Jewish belief on the subject? Do they have a stance? I would assume that their belief would hold some clues as to the stance that is more correct. If original sin existed then they would have had belief in it from the point of Adam. Or, if original sin did not exist then they would not have the belief. Unless there was no knowledge given men of this until the New Testament? I can't believe God would leave thousands of years of people without knowledge of it if they were subject to it.
* yes, it contradict... now, according to theologists, what is the original sin?
~ the condition of sin that marks all humans as a result of Adam's first act of disobedience.
~ a sin inherited by all descendants of Adam ; "Adam and Even committed the original sin when they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden".
* but the Bible says:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son ; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Ezekiel 18:20
* a very blatant statement... "... the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." and vice versa... it is very clear, my friend...
* and, do infants and children have sins? let's hear from Christ Himself...
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven ."
Matthew 19:14
* for Christ to say this, children are innocent, children have no sins... but what is the baptism for?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Acts 2:38
* for the remission or forgiveness of sins... which was not in children... because "... of such is the kingdom of heaven..."
Re: Man, inherently evil?
Originally posted by Regret
Genesis 1:3131 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day
I don't understand the idea that men are inherently evil. I don't feel like researching the scripture references, so if someone wants to share their views on the subject feel free, although I might disagree 😛
The Biblical concept of mankind inherently evil and/or sinful if absurd. Pelagius was right - if it all did exist, then there is no way people born today should still be being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve. It fundamentally destroys the Christian claim of free will if people are to be tared with the same brush as the original sinners. It takes away our choice to sin we are automatically sinful.
Beside, I believe mankind is inherently neutral. Many morals and ethics are fundamentally the product of social conditioning. After all, a good, law abiding Roman brought to todays world would be considered a criminal, maybe even a monster. Take a native from one of the deep Amazonian villages and drop him in New York - due to the different social constraints he would inevitably do something criminal - of course he wouldn't know this.
Then there are deeper instincts - thou shall not kill is, in my opinion, more of something ingrained from non-sentient days. It can be overcome (a murderer, or a soldier, or in self defense.) But over all when a human is born they are neutral - not evil or really good. They will develop into such categories as life goes on.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, all human suffering has occured do the the fact that a man ate an apple🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Strawman.
You are attacking the symbolism and not the actual idea behind the symbol. The Bible is a book of symbolism (however far to many take it as literal)
Whether or not Adam simply represents the original group of homo sapieans (or whatever the hell they were called please forgive my spelling) or an actual man named Adam doesn't matter. It's the point of the story that matters.
The idea of the passage as that man disobeyed God in attempt to be like God by gaining the knowledge of good or evil. It does not matter to me how it happened or if their was even a "Garden of Eden". What matters is the point behind the story.
Man rebels against God and says "We wish to govern own lives." God says "ok you do that, but be prepared for the consequences."
As in response to the thread's question. No I think that man has the potential for both "good" or "evil" acts.
Originally posted by peejayd* and, do infants and children have sins? let's hear from Christ Himself...
"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven ."
Matthew 19:14* for Christ to say this, children are innocent, children have no sins... but what is the baptism for?
Boy peejayd, that's a big stretch. 😱
Jesus was talking to those that were holding back children from coming to Him in faith? How does this verse say children have no sin?
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:20
The nice thing about the word "ALL" is there is little room for wiggle or re-interpretations. 😄
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes but where's the logic?
I only asked for the quotes of him.
The logic is that there are more verses in support of no original sin. Also, the verses that support original sin are weak in literal validity by comparison. The last verse quoted by Justbyfaith doesn't support original sin, only that all men sin.
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:20
Originally posted by Regret
I only asked for the quotes of him.The logic is that there are more verses in support of no original sin. Also, the verses that support original sin are weak in literal validity by comparison. The last verse quoted by Justbyfaith doesn't support original sin, only that all men sin.
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:20
Sorry. I should have been specific. Peejayd doesn't use logic to support his quotes.
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Boy peejayd, that's a big stretch. 😱
Jesus was talking to those that were holding back children from coming to Him in faith? How does this verse say children have no sin?"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:20
The nice thing about the word "ALL" is there is little room for wiggle or re-interpretations. 😄
* let's see... so, what kind of people are those who could commit sin?
"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good , and sinneth not."
Ecclesiastes 7:20
* what was my point? my point is that, a person who commits sin, is a person who is capable of committing a sin, a person who is capable of doing good or bad... so basically, saying that "... all men sinneth..." really excludes innocent infants and children...
* infants and children are innocent...
"For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness ; for he is a babe."
Hebrews 5:13
* so tell me, mr.Justbyfaith, what if an infant or a child died unbaptized, the "original sin" is still with it, and what? it will go straight to hell? boy, your "god" sure is a very cold-hearted "god"... 😉
Originally posted by Arcana
The idea of the passage as that man disobeyed God in attempt to be like God by gaining the knowledge of good or evil. It does not matter to me how it happened or if their was even a "Garden of Eden". What matters is the point behind the story.
And I say - why shouldn't we have tried to be like God? Apparently we are created in his image. How? We apparently have none of his power, apparently he didn't want us to have his knowledge, we have to obey. We can't look at him because he is "so great." Apparently he is perfect, but we, created in his image, are not. And the whole "God works in mysterious ways" that is why we can't understand him. We are said to be made in his image. It is kind of odd us little Gods don't have some sort of middle ground then and that we can't get even a wee bit of understanding.
It is like going to some guy who says "I have create a nation in the image of the US. Except it is made from soap."
Apparently we got created in the image of God, but got none of his feats or features. Nor the potential. Christians feel the need to reinforce the fact we are so much lesser the God. How can this be if we are in his image? Clearly we are made of soap.
Man rebels against God and says "We wish to govern own lives." God says "ok you do that, but be prepared for the consequences."
Question - did God intend for this to happen?
Originally posted by peejayd
* for someone who doesn't count Bible as a basis of support, your comment is rather stupid... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd* so tell me, mr.Justbyfaith, what if an infant or a child died unbaptized, the "original sin" is still with it, and what? it will go straight to hell? boy, your "god" sure is a very cold-hearted "god"... 😉
I was at catholic school and this is what sister maria told us. God will show mercy onto there souls. God will show mercy unto anyone who's had an unfair chance. Like children and infants who can't comprehend, or others born of another religion, who had religion forced onto them.
However if you directly choose not to follow Christ(like if the opportunity was presented), then God will not show mercy.
Originally posted by Arcana
Strawman.You are attacking the symbolism and not the actual idea behind the symbol. The Bible is a book of symbolism (however far to many take it as literal)
Whether or not Adam simply represents the original group of homo sapieans (or whatever the hell they were called please forgive my spelling) or an actual man named Adam doesn't matter. It's the point of the story that matters.
The idea of the passage as that man disobeyed God in attempt to be like God by gaining the knowledge of good or evil. It does not matter to me how it happened or if their was even a "Garden of Eden". What matters is the point behind the story.
Man rebels against God and says "We wish to govern own lives." God says "ok you do that, but be prepared for the consequences."
As in response to the thread's question. No I think that man has the potential for both "good" or "evil" acts.
I believe part of it suppost to be taken realistically(by Christians). When i used to be an active catholic, everyday in church it was drilled into are head, we are unworthy because of original sin, plus our own sins.
Originally posted by Imperial_SamuraThen there are deeper instincts - thou shall not kill is, in my opinion, more of something ingrained from non-sentient days. It can be overcome (a murderer, or a soldier, or in self defense.) But over all when a human is born they are neutral - not evil or really good. They will develop into such categories as life goes on.
I like that opinion on how some morals are ingrained, never though of it like that.