Re: Wonder Woman vs Superman /w a Twist
Originally posted by LethalFemme
They both have the same exact powers/levels. For all purposes they're both Kryptonian. Who wins?Superman
vs
Wonder Woman
Originally posted by Soljer
Not always, I guarantee you that Hughes would be able to take many Pride fighters.
Re: Re: Wonder Woman vs Superman /w a Twist
Originally posted by StyleTime
So...let's make Wonder Woman something she's not so she can beat Superman?Hughes could take some low-mid tier fighters true, but it wouldn't be fair to take a top tier fighter from UFC and pit him against some low tier fighters from Pride. Pride has some fighters on UFC level, but the top tier of Pride stand levels above the top tier of UFC.
I agree with you on your first comment, however, I must slightly disagree with the second.
I honestly believe that, while Hughes would NOT dominate Pride, he would certainly be able to at least 'hang' with some top-tier Pride fighters. Hughes is a monster, look at his humiliation of Gracie. Hell, he did it with more ease than Sakruaba. While I understand that Gracie is aging, and obviously not in his prime, he would still be a formidible fighter in either league, Pride or UFC, and Hughes humiliated him.
Would he go down to Silva? Fedor? Probably. But those guys aren't even in his weight class. Pit him against other welter weights, and I think he would rise to the top.
Hughes has a pretty damned good stand-up game, and considering that, while on the ground, put a gracie to shame...I wouldn't admonish his ground game either. He is truly neither a stand up fighter, nor a submission fighter, he is a MMA fighter. Look at his record, he has tons of wins both by submission and knock out.
Not that this is WILDLY off topic or anything, I just honestly believe that he could be one of the better pride welterweights, should he switch championships.
Oh.. and....errrm...Wonder Woman with Superman's powers wins. Just to be back on topic real quick :-D.
Re: Re: Re: Wonder Woman vs Superman /w a Twist
Originally posted by Soljer
I agree with you on your first comment, however, I must slightly disagree with the second.I honestly believe that, while Hughes would NOT dominate Pride, he would certainly be able to at least 'hang' with some top-tier Pride fighters. Hughes is a monster, look at his humiliation of Gracie. Hell, he did it with more ease than Sakruaba. While I understand that Gracie is aging, and obviously not in his prime, he would still be a formidible fighter in either league, Pride or UFC, and Hughes humiliated him.
Would he go down to Silva? Fedor? Probably. But those guys aren't even in his weight class. Pit him against other welter weights, and I think he would rise to the top.
Hughes has a pretty damned good stand-up game, and considering that, while on the ground, put a gracie to shame...I wouldn't admonish his ground game either. He is truly neither a stand up fighter, nor a submission fighter, he is a MMA fighter. Look at his record, he has tons of wins both by submission and knock out.
Not that this is WILDLY off topic or anything, I just honestly believe that he could be one of the better pride welterweights, should he switch championships.
I have to say it. Royce Gracie... is NOT a great fighter. Yes, I said it. What he did was revolutionary 10-15 years ago when your average fighter had little to know grappling training whatsoever. If you go back and watch Gracie's old fights, you'll see what would be described as "basic" techniques nowadays. Pride fighters have been taking out Gracies for a while (save for Rickson) now. Gracies aren't a big deal anymore. If Rickson would put on some weight, Nogueira could take him too.
The other problem here is, Pride just recently instituted their welterweight class. Pride is falling prey to this weight class BS but at least they have created the Open Weight Grand Prix. Anyway, most of the welterweights are actually middleweights who dropped some pounds to fight in the new category. We'd have no idea who Hughes would be fighting. Hughes may even have to drop or add weight to get a fight. Let's not kid ourselves, Hughes would go down in the middle or lightweight category. Even at welterweight, I can see him losing to Henderson or Chonan.
Hughes looks good because he is simply better than most in UFC. The same goes for Chuck. He got beat at his own game when he came to Pride.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Wonder Woman vs Superman /w a Twist
Originally posted by StyleTime
Yeah. It looks like LethalFemme just wanted to see Wonder Woman win eh?I have to say it. Royce Gracie... is NOT a great fighter. Yes, I said it. What he did was revolutionary 10-15 years ago when your average fighter had little to know grappling training whatsoever. If you go back and watch Gracie's old fights, you'll see what would be described as "basic" techniques nowadays. Pride fighters have been taking out Gracies for a while (save for Rickson) now. Gracies aren't a big deal anymore. If Rickson would put on some weight, Nogueira could take him too.
The other problem here is, Pride just recently instituted their welterweight class. Pride is falling prey to this weight class BS but at least they have created the Open Weight Grand Prix. Anyway, most of the welterweights are actually middleweights who dropped some pounds to fight in the new category. We'd have no idea who Hughes would be fighting. Hughes may even have to drop or add weight to get a fight. Let's not kid ourselves, Hughes would go down in the middle or lightweight category. Even at welterweight, I can see him losing to Henderson or Chonan.
Hughes looks good because he is simply better than most in UFC. The same goes for Chuck. He got beat at his own game when he came to Pride.
I get your point, and I agree that the average UFC fighter would fall to the average Pride fighter, I just see hughes as a step above the average UFC fighter. He truly is one of the best. While, if he jumped ahead some weight classes, I agree he would lose more often than not, I have to attribute that to the simple jumping of weight classes. It is unlikely that he will fight the same fight he is able to now, with an extra thirty pounds, even if that weight is lean muscle. He just wouldn't be the same man. Eh..
While, I suppose, our base message is the same - the Average pride fighter is superior to the average UFC fighter, I don't really think that we can necessarily say that pride fighters are superior to UFC fighters.
I believe that, while the best UFC fighters would not go into pride to dominate, they would certainly be able to at least 'hang' with some of the top tier pride fighters.
As far as gracies not being good fighters, however? I can't accept that. They CREATED brazilian jiu jitsu, the actual style that many of the best grapplers now use. Back when UFC was MADE, yes, the techniques looked basic, but that is because Gracie had just pioneered those techniques from traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu.
To say that the gracie's aren't the best Vale Tudo fighters around, I can accept and agree with. To say that they aren't some of the best grapplers and ground fighters around, though? I'll have to call bullshit on.
And...ermm...yes.
LethalFemme just wanted to see a win for Wonder Woman over Superman.
Originally posted by olympian
If its hand to hand then WW is.If its a slugfest then SM wins. Men are still natural stronger than women.
There, i said it.
Nay.
The average human male is stronger than the average human female. True.
However, he don't posess enough knowledge of kryptonian history and culture to make the exact same claim.
Originally posted by Soljer
I get your point, and I agree that the average UFC fighter would fall to the average Pride fighter, I just see hughes as a step above the average UFC fighter. He truly is one of the best. While, if he jumped ahead some weight classes, I agree he would lose more often than not, I have to attribute that to the simple jumping of weight classes. It is unlikely that he will fight the same fight he is able to now, with an extra thirty pounds, even if that weight is lean muscle. He just wouldn't be the same man. Eh..While, I suppose, our base message is the same - the Average pride fighter is superior to the average UFC fighter, I don't really think that we can necessarily say that pride fighters are superior to UFC fighters.
I believe that, while the best UFC fighters would not go into pride to dominate, they would certainly be able to at least 'hang' with some of the top tier pride fighters.
As far as gracies not being good fighters, however? I can't accept that. They CREATED brazilian jiu jitsu, the actual style that many of the best grapplers now use. Back when UFC was MADE, yes, the techniques looked basic, but that is because Gracie had just pioneered those techniques from traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu.
To say that the gracie's aren't the best Vale Tudo fighters around, I can accept and agree with. To say that they aren't some of the best grapplers and ground fighters around, though? I'll have to call bullshit on.
And...ermm...yes.
LethalFemme just wanted to see a win for Wonder Woman over Superman.
Wow you're so smart I don't know how you could have figured me out.🙄
Originally posted by olympian
If its hand to hand then WW is.If its a slugfest then SM wins. Men are still natural stronger than women.
There, i said it.
That still doesn't hold seeing as a slugfest pretty much is h2h and boxing is an Olympic sport that's not likely.😬
Originally posted by LethalFemme
Wow you're so smart I don't know how you could have figured me out.🙄That still doesn't hold seeing as a slugfest pretty much is h2h and boxing is an Olympic sport that's not likely.😬
*rolls eyes* Don't take me so seriously. That is the only thing that StyleTime mentioned that related to this thread in the least. I had to at least have SOME on-topic material in my post, or else it would have been entirely worthless to this thread, and better confined to a PM. Hence, I responded in the easiest way possible: agreement.
Originally posted by Soljer
*rolls eyes* Don't take me so seriously. That is the only thing that StyleTime mentioned that related to this thread in the least. I had to at least have SOME on-topic material in my post, or else it would have been entirely worthless to this thread, and better confined to a PM. Hence, I responded in the easiest way possible: agreement.
In all honesty I just wanted to see people opinion. For me I do see a power difference between WW and Superman but, not the huge gap everyone else seems to. I'm mean this can basically be brought down to a human woman who's basically an assassin vs a strong country boy.😬
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wonder Woman vs Superman /w a Twist
Originally posted by Soljer
The Gracies simply NAMED it Brazilian Juijutsu. Real grapplers were doing stuff like pulling guard since ancient Rome and feudal Judo tournaments. The Gracies simply made it mainstream. Also, remember when I say "fighter" I usually mean MMA/ValeTudo/etc. Pure grappling won't cut it and the Gracies put FAR, FAR too much emphasis on it. Sakuraba wasn't a great striker and he still owned several Gracies with his striking skills. Their not even the absolute best grapplers. Rickson is the only one who'd stand a chance against Nogueira. Genki Sudo destroyed Royler. Kimura defeated the legendary Helio Gracie UNDER JUIJUTSU RULES!
Anyway, thanks for being civilized. Usually people start flaming when I insult UFC or the Gracies.
Oh and I almost forgot. Judo > Brazilian Juijutsu. 😈
Originally posted by LethalFemme
In all honesty I just wanted to see people opinion. For me I do see a power difference between WW and Superman but, not the huge gap everyone else seems to. I'm mean this can basically be brought down to a human woman who's basically an assassin vs a strong country boy.😬
Nice analogy though.
This 1st is not superman vs ww your just making WW in to supergirl
Supergirl was traind as a amazon and tryed to fight superman once saying she was stronger and faster and superman KO her in one hit Amazon traing in all superman has been fighting for along time i think he had to pick up a few good moves and if she uses a sword superman can use his kyptonian warsuit with a mother box and then that the end of wonder woman
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wonder Woman vs Superman /w a Twist
Originally posted by StyleTime
Oh and I almost forgot. Judo > Brazilian Juijutsu. 😈
Oh HELL no. **** being civilized, the gloves are off now, *****! 😠
Haha, I kid. Seriously though, no style is 100% superior to another, the fighters USING it are. Meh. One Judoka may be better than one jiu jitsu practicioner, but I promise you that there is another BJJ practicioner that is superior to that first judoka.
Oh, 😮 and, I'm a little biased because I'm nearly a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
....
In my defense, though, I also was a boxer for some time, so I have at least half of my striking game down, my legs lack the speed required to put in some real devastating kicks, though. Haha, I DID find, however, that something I NEVER would have expected to help...helped. I don't have the speed on kicks, but shin blocks? I mean, to block low roundhouses, and the like? Hacky Sack! It imbues foot-eye coordination, along with speed and reflexes in the legs, like you wouldn't believe! Imagine hacky sack being part of some of the top MMA fighters' training. I'd love to see Silva sitting in a circle of high school kids "One..two...three...shit." 😆
Meh, I prefer going to ground and pound/submission than sheer stand-up, though, so I suppose I don't really NEED to have the fastest front kick or roundhouse.
Moving on, like I said, I don't think the gracies were bad Vale Tudo fighters, nor were they the best. But you HAVE to at least respect their ground game. I mean, look at the names you have to pull to say "There are better!" Jesus, Kimura?! KIMURA! Have you ever read up on the guy? He was a BEAST!
Oh, and their dedication. Helio wanted to keep up the fight with a broken arm. Matt Hughes could have easily broken Royce's arm in UFC 60, but let him go out of respect. These are guys that WON'T tap out, that is for damned sure.
Also, is hughes really 180 pounds? I thought he was trimmed down to 170 even. Either way, I could see him moving up into the middle weight division and still managing.
Though, you gotta know, if you are right on the line between weight classes, the smartest thing you could do is lose a pound or two and dominate the weight class beneath you, rather than gain a pound and try desperately to compete with guys that are on the OTHER end of the weight class.
Also, wouldn't wider weight classes make the fights depend LESS on skill? I mean, for at least HALF of the fighters. If you have one fighter that is 180 pounds, and one that is 200 (the approximate weight class of PRIDE middleweight, I believe), then the fighter with another twenty pounds of muscle is gonna have a pretty clear advantage. Versus UFC's middleweight, which is approximately 170-180.
Either way, one thing I LOVE about pride is the ten minute first round. It is especially beautiful for grapplers though; sometimes it's hard to wear a guy down in the first five minutes of a fight. I can attest to having twenty minute grapples with some of my partners, before one of us finally land a submission. The ten minute first round really gives them a better chance, and a more exciting fight.