Originally posted by Juntai
Tie. Love em both. Love comics. Love good stories. Love good characters.People didnt come with that "IC was a dissapointment" crap until after they saw Superman save the day again, and given that he's the most hated on the forum[with the thread to prove it] it's easy to understand why.
By the end of issue 3, then 4, then 5, then 6, everyone was still OMG OMG KGDSO STHIS IS SOOOO AWESSOMEEEEEEE. 7 comes... and then the story was crap? Bite me.
Civil War at this point is no better or worse than Crisis was at the same point.
Not true. While I can't speak for everyone else I expected Superman to come in and save the day. In fact I was surprised he did as little as he did. But for something that was soo hyped up, that was planned for so long in advance the end left me very dissapointed. A bunch of D-listers and Superboy died? Nothing else has fundementally changed? Also did you really thing all the tie-ins were necessary. I have nothing against tie-ins, but when reading tie-ins are essential to understanding the main story is when I get angry. I thought it was a solid story with great characterizaton but it seemed to me that all that happened was that a bunch of heroes most people don't care about anyway died
Originally posted by marvelprinceAnd the return of Donna Troy? And Specte killing off tons of characters who have shaped the DCU for years? Captain Marvel becoming the new Shazam? JLA falling apart? The Trinity losing complete faith in one another? LOTS happened in the Crisis or changed because of it or in its resolution.. People juse choose not to remember, or something... I dunno.
Not true. While I can't speak for everyone else I expected Superman to come in and save the day. In fact I was surprised he did as little as he did. But for something that was soo hyped up, that was planned for so long in advance the end left me very dissapointed. A bunch of D-listers and Superboy died? Nothing else has fundementally changed? Also did you really thing all the tie-ins were necessary. I have nothing against tie-ins, but when reading tie-ins are essential to understanding the main story is when I get angry. I thought it was a solid story with great characterizaton but it seemed to me that all that happened was that a bunch of heroes most people don't care about anyway died
Originally posted by pr1983Sort of. As in Marvel seems to want to make the theme civil liberties.... with government control being the subtle bad guy...
as in how it cant last?
The civil liberty to dress up and fight crime as a vigilante? (Way to diminish actual civil rights movements...) ... It's trying to apply a real world analogue to a situation where it doesn't really suit.
The mutant registration act was an okay civil liberties theme analogue because it was about a minority being discriminated due to something beyond their control and wanting to be treated with equal integrity.
In civil war the anti- people are fighting for their "right?" to be above the law... their "right?" to perform these activities by their own choice... just doesn't really fly and seems kinda silly if you really think about it.
It begs the question why have people even allowed this to go on at all? A question that doesn't seem to have been addressed in full as yet and probably won't. The status quo in comics is ordinary people have simply accepted heroes "just because". Civil War is no Watchmen
And yes it can't last, in the end they can't get rid of the heroes... this is the world of comic heroes... Marvel without heroes = bankrupt.. something will reconcile the two groups.
Originally posted by Juntai
And the return of Donna Troy? And Specte killing off tons of characters who have shaped the DCU for years? Captain Marvel becoming the new Shazam? JLA falling apart? The Trinity losing complete faith in one another? LOTS happened in the Crisis or changed because of it or in its resolution.. People juse choose not to remember, or something... I dunno.
I meant the aftermath of Infinite Crisis. Donna didn't return during Infinite Crisis. Captain Marvel has not become the new Shazaam yet (if he did I missed it). JLA fell apart before the Crisis. Trinity lost faith in each beofre the Crisis. This my point. All these things happened in the tie-ins/lead ups, not in the series itself
Originally posted by marvelprinceYou mean the core 7 issues alone.. then? All of those things certainly happened while the Crisis was happening and are certainly part of it, given that much of what I named was directly influenced by Alexander Luthor and SBP and their machinations.
I meant the aftermath of Infinite Crisis. Donna didn't return during Infinite Crisis. Captain Marvel has not become the new Shazaam yet (if he did I missed it). JLA fell apart before the Crisis. Trinity lost faith in each beofre the Crisis. This my point. All these things happened in the tie-ins/lead ups, not in the series itself
Captain Marvel pretty much replaced Shazam already, you missed it I giess, he had to go into the newly reformed Rock of Eternity because only his magic could bind it together in the Day of Vengeance Special that happened mid-Crisis. That's why he's seen in the new costume on the final pages of IC.
Originally posted by Juntai
You mean the core 7 issues alone.. then? All of those things certainly happened while the Crisis was happening and are certainly part of it, given that much of what I named was directly influenced by Alexander Luthor and SBP and their machinations.Captain Marvel pretty much replaced Shazam already, you missed it I giess, he had to go into the newly reformed Rock of Eternity because only his magic could bind it together in the Day of Vengeance Special that happened mid-Crisis. That's why he's seen in the new costume on the final pages of IC.
Yes I meant the core issues. Thinking about it again its kinda sad big things like those were relegated to tie in. Like I said, even though I read the tie-ins, I didn't like that I essentially had to in order to know what was going on. The event on the whole was very well done and I applaud DC for taking so much time into carefully crafting the story. Johns was stellar and I loved his take on the characters. What I don't like is that aftermath. For an event as big as Crisis something bigger should have come out of it all. Instead we have basically the same old status quo, with a few new faces in old roles to make it look interesting
Originally posted by willRules
I loved Villains united and I have read most of OMAC project and its great so far. I think i prefer the tie ins to infinite crisis itself at the moment......................
Yup. That's my thing with it. Seems like all the big things were happening outside of the main series itself
Originally posted by marvelprinceAnd the old Gods are gone or destroyed [Spectre destroyed some, Wonder Woman's left the universe... etc etc.], it's a new era of magic, the lords of chaos and order are gone...and donna is the harbinger, and the Monitors returned now, and basically another knot in time like in the Crisis, and new faces, and history changes.... the DCU took a major facelift. Like I said, most just choose to ignore it or didn't read the tie ins. You didn't have to read them, or may not have read them all, and I'll give you that everything you wanted to happen in the core issues might have happened in tie ines... but it doesn't mean they didn't happen/weren't part of Crisis and didn't change the entire DCU to its foundations.
Yes I meant the core issues. Thinking about it again its kinda sad big things like those were relegated to tie in. Like I said, even though I read the tie-ins, I didn't like that I essentially had to in order to know what was going on. The event on the whole was very well done and I applaud DC for taking so much time into carefully crafting the story. Johns was stellar and I loved his take on the characters. What I don't like is that aftermath. For an event as big as Crisis something bigger should have come out of it all. Instead we have basically the same old status quo, with a few new faces in old roles to make it look interesting
If we were to compare just the core issues of Crisis and core issues of Civil War, we have . .. . what cap jumped out of a window, Iron Man unmasks himself[even though everyone knew who he was anyways, pretty much] and proposes that heros should sign up, Spiderman unmasks himself... a little brawl in number 3, and Thor breaks it up?
How does that compare to the immensity of what happened in the Crisis core issies? The sheer scale of Crisis alone is daunting in comparison, without even considering what actually transpired.
Civil War is a good story, and I'm loving in[I love political stuff and especially love Millars work.], but don't critize one about the events, when the other has nothing that compares to it in immensity.
Originally posted by Juntai
And the old Gods are gone or destroyed [Spectre destroyed some, Wonder Woman's left the universe... etc etc.], it's a new era of magic, the lords of chaos and order are gone...and donna is the harbinger, and the Monitors returned now, and basically another knot in time like in the Crisis, and new faces, and history changes.... the DCU took a major facelift. Like I said, most just choose to ignore it or didn't read the tie ins. You didn't have to read them, or may not have read them all, and I'll give you that everything you wanted to happen in the core issues might have happened in tie ines... but it doesn't mean they didn't happen/weren't part of Crisis and didn't change the entire DCU to its foundations.
Dude, not disputing nothing happened, its that nothing mauch happened in the core issues. I don't know why we're going back to this. I did read all the tie ins except for Rann/Thannager War, which I'm looking into getting now, so I know what all happened. Its just that most of it was relegated to the sidelines. I'll give you that the DCU has foundamentally changed though, that no one can argue with. I'd also have liked to see some more reaction to the big 3 especially. At the end of the Crisis she seemed pretty chipper for someone whose race is gone forever. Clark didn't even seem to Bat an eye at Conner's death. And what about Batman feeling some sort of elation over the fact that Nightwing didn't die. Its not that nothing happened in the DCU after Crisis, its that I didn't get to see how all the heroes (mostly the big 3) have dealt with what happened
Originally posted by Juntai
If we were to compare just the core issues of Crisis and core issues of Civil War, we have . .. . what cap jumped out of a window, Iron Man unmasks himself[even though everyone knew who he was anyways, pretty much] and proposes that heros should sign up, Spiderman unmasks himself... a little brawl in number 3, and Thor breaks it up?How does that compare to the immensity of what happened in the Crisis core issies? The sheer scale of Crisis alone is daunting in comparison, without even considering what actually transpired.
Civil War is a good story, and I'm loving in[I love political stuff and especially love Millars work.], but don't critize one about the events, when the other has nothing that compares to it in immensity.
Are you seriously trying to draw comparison between an event that involved countless Earth's and spanned the cosmo's to one where the US government is trying to regulate heroes. You can't just look at it, you most compare them relatively. First off Civil War is more real and more believeable than IC and hence why for many its better. Its something we can actually envision happening in a world where heroes exist. Crisis may have been huge but the big characters were rarely touched. Spider-Man unmasks to the world. How could you not see that as big? We are not just having some D-listers screwed with. We have Captain America being hunted by Iron Man. We don't have the Justice League breaking up just to form again tomorrow. We have the potential break down of a family, the Fantastic Four.
For me, again all my opinion, I like Civil War better cause its involving Marvel's big characters and really throwing them for loops. We also get to really see how they feel through the whole thing. We got excellent characterization of the villian but not much else in IC. Civil War works on a much smaller scale and yet it directly involves its big characters. We see their thoughts, their feelings and motivation. Crisis was set on a much bigger scale but no matter how you slice it nothing that happened in Crisis can compare to Spider-Man unmasking to the whole world
Originally posted by marvelprinceSee, I felt that the return of the characters Earth 2 Superman, Alexander Luthor and Superboy Prime alone was equally as large. Killing Superboy was huge. Killing Earth 2 Superman, the character that built the company was huge. And that's just a few examples of what happened in core issues alone.
Are you seriously trying to draw comparison between an event that involved countless Earth's and spanned the cosmo's to one where the US government is trying to regulate heroes. You can't just look at it, you most compare them relatively. First off Civil War is more real and more believeable than IC and hence why for many its better. Its something we can actually envision happening in a world where heroes exist. Crisis may have been huge but the big characters were rarely touched. Spider-Man unmasks to the world. How could you not see that as big? We are not just having some D-listers screwed with. We have Captain America being hunted by Iron Man. We don't have the Justice League breaking up just to form again tomorrow. We have the potential break down of a family, the Fantastic Four.For me, again all my opinion, I like Civil War better cause its involving Marvel's big characters and really throwing them for loops. We also get to really see how they feel through the whole thing. We got excellent characterization of the villian but not much else in IC. Civil War works on a much smaller scale and yet it directly involves its big characters. We see their thoughts, their feelings and motivation. Crisis was set on a much bigger scale but no matter how you slice it nothing that happened in Crisis can compare to Spider-Man unmasking to the whole world
Like I said, the sheer scope is just completely different scales. Crisis was huge event after huge event, nearly every issue, even in tie ins, across nearly 2 years.
If we compared Civil War and Identity Crisis, which it is far more comparable to at this point... I'll say the way things are going now, Civil War could one up it, but I'll need to see it's conclusion first, since that story was strong from beginning to end.
Originally posted by marvelprinceThat's what 52 is about, after the Crisis,...filling in those gaps... we didn't get to see that in characters titles because it skipped an entire year... and some are happening in character titles as we speak, like the relationship changes between Batman and Robin, how the characters mourn over Superboy in Titans and other titles, etc.
Dude, not disputing nothing happened, its that nothing mauch happened in the core issues. I don't know why we're going back to this. I did read all the tie ins except for Rann/Thannager War, which I'm looking into getting now, so I know what all happened. Its just that most of it was relegated to the sidelines. I'll give you that the DCU has foundamentally changed though, that no one can argue with. I'd also have liked to see some more reaction to the big 3 especially. At the end of the Crisis she seemed pretty chipper for someone whose race is gone forever. Clark didn't even seem to Bat an eye at Conner's death. And what about Batman feeling some sort of elation over the fact that Nightwing didn't die. Its not that nothing happened in the DCU after Crisis, its that I didn't get to see how all the heroes (mostly the big 3) have dealt with what happened
Originally posted by Juntai
See, I felt that the return of the characters Earth 2 Superman, Alexander Luthor and Superboy Prime alone was equally as large. Killing Superboy was huge. Killing Earth 2 Superman, the character that built the company was huge. And that's just a few examples of what happened in core issues alone.Like I said, the sheer scope is just completely different scales. Crisis was huge event after huge event, nearly every issue, even in tie ins, across nearly 2 years.
If we compared Civil War and Identity Crisis, which it is far more comparable to at this point... I'll say the way things are going now, Civil War could one up it, but I'll need to see it's conclusion first, since that story was strong from beginning to end.
Earth 2 Superman was for the most part forgotten. I know a lot of people who didn't even know who that was. Same with Alex and Superboy Prime. Only long times fans could really appreciatte them. Identity Crisis was nothing to Civil War. I'm not gonna try explain how Civil War is as huge as Infinite Crisis cause then that would branch into how each of the two companies are fundamentally different. For all intents and purposes IC and CW are the biggest things to happen to both companies. IC for the sheer scope of it all and CW for its realism and honesty. Obviously more stuff has happened as a result of IC and you feel thats what makes it so great. I feel that those changes are cosmetic cause I have yet to see the effect of those changes. You feel CW is ok but not much has happened yet. I agree not much has happened but the things that have happened have truly meant something. The scope is entirely meaningless if the implications aren't far reaching. Conversely a lot of things could have happened that left nothing much changed.
You feel Infinite Crisis was terrific, and I agree that it was an excellent story. But I feel nothing much has changed despite all the things that have changed (I hope that makes sense). I can respect that. Likewise I think Civil War is great and so far big things have happened. You feel that nothing much has gone on. Its all about personal opinion and tastes. I'd hazard a guess that are more of a DC fan fan no?
Actually let me reiterate my earlier phrases , they should have left it at half of seven. None of this 'Take over the city crap' just SPB going nuts and taking out buildings while screaming he wants to go home .
The Supes and Kal L get involved as do the Gl's , the issue ends in the same way but just doesn't suck as much.