Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The thing that made him so formidable to me, in the movie, was the vicious metal tentacles. In the comics they look to plastic, and too short. As if you could dodge them or take hits and survive.-AC
Least favorite scene: the horrendously overused "Lord's prayer" scene with Aunt May and the Green Goblin.
I found the scene where the doctors are trying to remove the tentacles from Octavius incredibly horrifying for some reason.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I guess if you've always imagined him as a vicious villain, then it works. I never really liked him, I always thought he was just a guy who fought Spider-Man, but could have been better.
Actually, that's exactly how I view Venom. He has little depth, his motives for hating Spider-Man are weak, and basically he was just this guy who was there to fight Spider-Man.
He never had any other motives or agendas. He was just there to fight Spidey. And that get's real boring after a while.
Doc Ock and the Green Goblin were actually written as credible threats. In Ock's case he was written as a threat to Spider-Man and the entire city. So many great stories with him threatening millions of people.
I think my personal favorite one was when he stole a neutron bomb and tried to use it to obliterate New York just to prove that he was the most dangerous man alive.
When Spider-Man and Black Cat foiled the scheme, Ock beat Black Cat to within an inch of her life. He then went to the hospital she was taken to, and told Spider-Man that in 24 hours he would kill him and her for what they did. He wanted Spider-Man to know 24 hours of fear. And he smashed the Cat's life support machine as he left.
Peter spent the next day saying good bye to all his friends and family because he was certain he may not survive his battle with Ock. And their showdown was classic. An entire issue of a full out superhero/ super villain battle that spilled from the hospital, onto the streets, onto the highway, onto a train yard, and finally to a construction site.
He was always written as a vicious villain. Probably why he's still as popular as he is. If you look at it, he's the only A-class villain who's been around consistently since Stan Lee's day. Norman disappeared for over 20 years after ASM#122, Venom didn't come along til the late 80's. But Ock's been there all along retaining his A-class villain status.
The thing that made him so formidable to me, in the movie, was the vicious metal tentacles. In the comics they look to plastic, and too short. As if you could dodge them or take hits and survive.
I'll agree that movie tentacles are definitely his deadliest and best looking version of his tentacles, but I never saw his comic tentacles as plastic looking.
They were metal. He smashed, crushed and destroyed countless things with him. They never looked weak and easy to dodge IMO. Probably because they were never shown that way.
They certainly looked more threatening than a guy in a purple night cap and elf boots with green spandex.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Least favorite scene: the horrendously overused "Lord's prayer" scene with Aunt May and the Green Goblin.
Deliver us from eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
😄
I found the scene where the doctors are trying to remove the tentacles from Octavius incredibly horrifying for some reason. [/B]
Love that scene. It was so brutal.
That bit where the nurse scrapes her finger nails along the floor was 😱 😱
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Doc Ock and the Green Goblin were actually written as credible threats. In Ock's case he was written as a threat to Spider-Man and the entire city. So many great stories with him threatening millions of people.
Venom had a personal connection, though. To me, it seemed more like the others came a bit out of nowhere.
I always found it more formidable that Spider-Man had a foe in Venom that was not only like a better version of him, but they were real life foes. Parker/Brock and Spidey/Venom. Doc Ock just always struck me as a generic villain that you'd get fighting a superhero. Scientist goes bad, has weapons, uses them.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
I think my personal favorite one was when he stole a neutron bomb and tried to use it to obliterate New York just to prove that he was the most dangerous man alive.
That's the thing, Ock is a general villain. Venom doesn't care about destroying the world, Spidey hasn't go to worry about Venom going to blow up a building, Venom is always after him and those he loves, so he's got to be on his personal guard. He has an enemy that seeks him out, torments him and abuses him, rather than one who will do a dirty deed and get Spidey's attention.
It's entirely down to preference, but I prefer Venom.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
When Spider-Man and Black Cat foiled the scheme, Ock beat Black Cat to within an inch of her life. He then went to the hospital she was taken to, and told Spider-Man that in 24 hours he would kill him and her for what they did. He wanted Spider-Man to know 24 hours of fear. And he smashed the Cat's life support machine as he left.
With the exception of actually carrying it out, that again just seems like generic villain activity to me. Anyone could do that, he didn't need to be a super villain. Bin Laden orchestrated 9/11, that's worse than most of Doc Ock's acts.
Venom caused him problems all the time, Venom was like a stalker (and if you've ever had one you'll know how bad it can get).
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Peter spent the next day saying good bye to all his friends and family because he was certain he may not survive his battle with Ock. And their showdown was classic. An entire issue of a full out superhero/ super villain battle that spilled from the hospital, onto the streets, onto the highway, onto a train yard, and finally to a construction site.
It was a good fight, they've had a few, but to me that was always because Spidey was so awesome, not necessarily because of Ock or even Venom. It's like wrestling, your ability to have a great match relies on your opponent.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
He was always written as a vicious villain. Probably why he's still as popular as he is. If you look at it, he's the only A-class villain who's been around consistently since Stan Lee's day. Norman disappeared for over 20 years after ASM#122, Venom didn't come along til the late 80's. But Ock's been there all along retaining his A-class villain status.
If you're primarily a Spider-Man reader, Ock might carry a bit more weight. Being that I read the likes of Surfer and Hulk, featuring such villains as Thanos and Doom, people who actually enslave/destroy worlds, smashing a life support system doesn't do much for me.
Even Goblin wiped out...Gwen Stacy once.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
They were metal. He smashed, crushed and destroyed countless things with him. They never looked weak and easy to dodge IMO. Probably because they were never shown that way.They certainly looked more threatening than a guy in a purple night cap and elf boots with green spandex.
Well you obviously read Ock differently to me.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri ]Venom had a personal connection, though. To me, it seemed more like the others came a bit out of nowhere.
That's how villains generally are. They come out of nowhere and strike. Green Goblin came out of nowhere, Electro did,Vulture did, Kraven did, Mysterio did, the Hobgoblin did, The Joker did, Mr Freeze did. Catwoman did etc
Most of the great villains do.
They don't have to be personally connected to the hero to be formidable or interesting. How boring it would be if all the villains were personally tied to the hero.
Unless you only prefer villains with a personal connection.
Doc Ock just always struck me as a generic villain that you'd get fighting a superhero. Scientist goes bad, has weapons, uses them.
You seem to be forgetting that Doc Ock was created in 1963. When those types of villains were not generic in the comic books. Any mad scientist villain that came after that are more than likely inspired by Ock.
Green Goblin included, as Osborn was a scientist who had a lab accident and turned nuts.
That's the thing, Ock is a general villain. Venom doesn't care about destroying the world, Spidey hasn't go to worry about Venom going to blow up a building, Venom is always after him and those he loves, so he's got to be on his personal guard. He has an enemy that seeks him out, torments him and abuses him, rather than one who will do a dirty deed and get Spidey's attention.It's entirely down to preference, but I prefer Venom.
Well there you go then. You prefer a personal villain. A villain who has one goal. I prefer some variety in my villains.
Being a general villain means there's many areas that villain can branch into. Villains like Venom on the other hand are restricted to one type of story. And as I said, that get's boring after a while.
With the exception of actually carrying it out, that again just seems like generic villain activity to me. Anyone could do that, he didn't need to be a super villain. Bin Laden orchestrated 9/11, that's worse than most of Doc Ock's acts.
Oh please. Are you going to start comparing comic book villains to real life events??
If you go by that logic, 99% of comic book villain's deeds have been done in real life.
Apart from the ridiculously outrageous acts like conquering or crushing worlds.
Venom caused him problems all the time, Venom was like a stalker (and if you've ever had one you'll know how bad it can get).
But it got boring though. Same stuff over and over. Venom stalks him, they fight. Venom comes back and stalks him again later on.
They added no new variety to the proceedings. So they went and turned him anti hero. And that's when the downfall of the character began and he hasn't recovered since.
It was a good fight, they've had a few, but to me that was always because Spidey was so awesome, not necessarily because of Ock or even Venom. It's like wrestling, your ability to have a great match relies on your opponent.
Again, that's your own preference. Though one rarely seen. Most fans enjoy the battle for the hero AND villain.
If you're primarily a Spider-Man reader, Ock might carry a bit more weight. Being that I read the likes of Surfer and Hulk, featuring such villains as Thanos and Doom, people who actually enslave/destroy worlds, smashing a life support system doesn't do much for me.Even Goblin wiped out...Gwen Stacy once.
If you compare any of the Spider-Man villains to Thanos and Dr Doom, they pale in comparison.
Doom is Marvel's Joker.
Well you obviously read Ock differently to me.
Obviously.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
That's how villains generally are. They come out of nowhere and strike.They don't have to be personally connected to the hero to be formidable or interesting. How boring it would be if all the villains were personally tied to the hero.
Unless you only prefer villains with a personal connection.
I just preferred Venom, Doom and Thanos are my favs.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
You seem to be forgetting that Doc Ock was created in 1963. When those types of villains were not generic in the comic books. Any mad scientist villain that came after that are more than likely inspired by Ock.
Well that's fair enough, but is it really something to be massively thankful for? Undoubtedly it gave them interesting avenues vis-a-vis what villains they could create, but it's sort of like being the first boyband, or being the "first" band to do something.
For every great band you spawn, there's a million shit rip offs.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Being a general villain means there's many areas that villain can branch into. Villains like Venom on the other hand are restricted to one type of story. And as I said, that get's boring after a while.
I agree, after a while it did get boring. To me, what Venom did and who Venom was, happened to be much more enjoyable and came across as much more threatening, than Ock.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Oh please. Are you going to start comparing comic book villains to real life events??If you go by that logic, 99% of comic book villain's deeds have been done in real life.
Apart from the ridiculously outrageous acts like conquering or crushing worlds.
The unrealistic ones, yeah. Which is precisely why I read comics.
If Venom was just running around NYC raping women and stabbing people, I'd think "Why is the symbiote even necessary?". It's the same with simple acts like that. It was necessary in that situation, sure, and Ock has done plenty of damage in comic-like ways, but that sort of occurance never strikes me as a massively villainous thing to do. Although, ironically, it does show that underneath all the powers, it's humans fighting humans, and they still have hatred.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
But it got boring though. Same stuff over and over. Venom stalks him, they fight. Venom comes back and stalks him again later on.
That is true. I love Carnage, but I could tell that they'd end up going crazy with the symbiotes. Carnage could have bombed, but he provided much needed variation to the dynamic. The rest just made it was too cliche, Spider-Man moved on and it became Venom/Carnage feuding.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
They added no new variety to the proceedings. So they went and turned him anti hero. And that's when the downfall of the character began and he hasn't recovered since.
I agree there also. I wouldn't say he's a BAD character, but he's not a "bad" character anymore. He's called Venom, has a fair amount of power, and he's trying to do the Hulk thing of being neutral, leaning toward good.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Again, that's your own preference. Though one rarely seen. Most fans enjoy the battle for the hero AND villain.
Which is precisely why I enjoyed the Spidey/Venom thing. I just preferred those two.
Then again, as random as he was, I always liked Shocker.
Originally posted by Doc Ock
If you compare any of the Spider-Man villains to Thanos and Dr Doom, they pale in comparison.Doom is Marvel's Joker.
He is the ultimate super-villain I think. Especially since he has no "powers".
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I just preferred Venom, Doom and Thanos are my favs.
Fair enough.
We all have our favs.
Well that's fair enough, but is it really something to be massively thankful for? Undoubtedly it gave them interesting avenues vis-a-vis what villains they could create, but it's sort of like being the first boyband, or being the "first" band to do something.For every great band you spawn, there's a million shit rip offs.
Is Ock a villain to be thankful for?? Hell yes. The rip offs I don't care for. All the great villains have a some kind of rip off. They pale in comparison to the originals.
How many symbiote villains have we had?? How many Goblins has Spidey faced???
None of them compare to the original.
Also, one of my favorite things about Ock is that he's what Marvel call the evil Peter Parker. The Peter Parker gone bad.
They both had sad lonely childhoods. Both grew up in middle class New York. Both were bullied, both were science geeks, both were unpopular with girls, both lost a parent at a young age, both acquired their power in a radioactive lab accident. But Peter chose to use his powers responsibly and for the good of others, while Octavius chose to use his irresponsibly for his own selfish gain.
A wonderful parallel between them. And one that was touched on in several great comics. You might have read them. Spider-Man Unlimited #3 and Doctor Octopus Year One.
I agree, after a while it did get boring. To me, what Venom did and who Venom was, happened to be much more enjoyable and came across as much more threatening, than Ock.
I like Venom in his early days. Those were his best stories. Fresh and sharp. And he was actually threatening back then too.
But personally, Doctor Octopus has always been a cut above him for me. He's done some really evil things and tormented Spidey far more than Venom ever has over the years. When Ock strikes, Spidey just doesn't have to worry about himself, but many other innocents too. He's messed and hurt people Peter cares for, and been involved in the deaths of people Peter cared for.
The unrealistic ones, yeah. Which is precisely why I read comics.If Venom was just running around NYC raping women and stabbing people, I'd think "Why is the symbiote even necessary?". It's the same with simple acts like that. It was necessary in that situation, sure, and Ock has done plenty of damage in comic-like ways, but that sort of occurance never strikes me as a massively villainous thing to do. Although, ironically, it does show that underneath all the powers, it's humans fighting humans, and they still have hatred.
The difference between the comics and real life is that the bad guys of the comics are not facing the authorities as their main opposition. They are facing super powered heros. And to combat those they need super powers themselves.
Not to mention, the villain's power is a major trait of the villain themselves.
That is true. I love Carnage, but I could tell that they'd end up going crazy with the symbiotes. Carnage could have bombed, but he provided much needed variation to the dynamic. The rest just made it was too cliche, Spider-Man moved on and it became Venom/Carnage feuding.
I enjoy Carnage yeah. Probably the only good thing to come from Venom in the 90's
Then again, as random as he was, I always liked Shocker.
I always saw Shocker as a poor man's Electro.
I'd have to agree with Doc Ock here.
Venom started off brilliantly, then became stale, his anti hero thing wasn't to bad and the addition of Carnage was pretty cool to, but in the end it was the same thing over and over, Venom's strength kept changing he got to the point where he was beating up Juggernaught and Spuerman, then some where along the way he lost his charm, the symbiote suddenly took over and he was evil.
Where as Ock has only improved he's done some pretty damn evil things, not to mention cool ones, like where he wiped Spidey's memory and had him join up with him, where he saved his life just so he could kill him in a grand battle, he even went on to try and marry Aunt May just to get an atmoic facility or something and one of my favourites where he kidmapped an ambassedor or someone...anyway and said he'd kill him and start a war if Spider-man didn't take off his mask in front of everybody.
In the end Doc Ock and Spidey became sort of rivals constantly trying to outdo each other, or more of Doc Ock wanting to out do spidey but was always put in his place.
He also had one of the best revival stories out of comic's, the whole "Oh I never realy died" thing is so boring now its untrue, and apparently Venom is getting that treatment. I liked the fact he was actualy ressurected.
Overall both characters are awsome but Doc Ock changed for the better and venom changed for the worst.
Originally posted by bakerboy
Best scenes in man spider 1: title credits, end credits, final fight between man spidey and power ranger.Worst scenes in man spider 1: everything else.
Best scenes in man spider 2: title credits, end credits, fights between man spidey and doc ock.
Worst scenes in man spider 2: everything else.
IMO Venom had some qualities many characters didn't have (At the time) For instance his wicked sense of justice and his morals. He didn't care about money, he didn't want to harm Peter's family. He just wanted justice (Even though his sense of justice was... Bit off)
He was rather good untill they created Carnage and all the other symbiotes. His and Carnage's rivalry came to be bit boring. Always saying how he's going to kill Cletus and his symbiote.. That never happened.. Boooring.
Doc Ock was a marvelous old school villain, his first years were graet. He felt menacing, though his motives were bit bland at times (At least IMO) He was quite good, but after the events of Stacy he became bit dull and boring character. Modern Doc Ock is a joke. Did someone read their latest fight? "15-year-old!!!!" 😄
Originally posted by bakerboy
Best scenes in man spider 1: title credits, end credits, final fight between man spidey and power ranger.Worst scenes in man spider 1: everything else.
Best scenes in man spider 2: title credits, end credits, fights between man spidey and doc ock.
Worst scenes in man spider 2: everything else.
guess u just liked the fights.. wow theres more to a movie than non-stop-action
Originally posted by Jyppe
Modern Doc Ock is a joke. Did someone read their latest fight? "15-year-old!!!!" 😄
Yeah, he was pissed off when he found out Spider-Man was 15 years old when they first met. What villain wouldn't be??
Modern Ock rocks. As opposed to modern Venom who's not even Eddie Brock. He's the Scorpion 😄
Originally posted by Doc Ock
Yeah, he was pissed off when he found out Spider-Man was 15 years old when they first met. What villain wouldn't be??Modern Ock rocks. As opposed to modern Venom who's not even Eddie Brock. He's the Scorpion 😄
Norman didn't, did he? There is no normal Venom 😘 That.. Scorpio-thing sucks big time. I still hold my ground. IMO Modern Doc Ock is a joke. Ultimate is lot better.