Count Dooku versus Darth Traya

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, in all fairness, we have few sources for any KotoR character, and yet several of us argue that most of them are superior to the PT Jedi (which is the "golden age" for lightsaber skills, according to George Lucas).

If we wanted to go on just [B]sheer sources, then we could not accurately put Darth Revan on par with any of the PT boys, though I believe he's on their level (at least). [/B]

Which is why I don't hold much stock for using people like Revan or Bandon in debates.

You can't determine a character's power - or skill with a lightsabre - if you don't have any sources on the subject, or knowledge, or any kind of indication of their strength with a blade.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Not to mention she's a historian, etc. We don't notice Odan Urr having superior saber abilities as that isn't his speciality.

Yes, but Odan-Urr isn't Kreia. It's a fair statement, but it's not backed up by anything.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Which is why I don't hold much stock for using people like Revan or Bandon in debates.

You can't determine a character's power - or skill with a lightsabre - if you don't have any sources on the subject, or knowledge, or any kind of indication of their strength with a blade.

I try to avoid topics regarding Revan, Bandon, Malak, Nihilius, Sion, or any of the Kotor Sith/Jedi, because you're right. Aside from the various in-game comments, you have absolutely nothing to go on.

But in the same token, for all we know, Traya would bite the big one from Dooku - even though I believe otherwise.

Originally posted by Escape81
I try to avoid topics regarding Revan, Bandon, Malak, Nihilius, Sion, or any of the Kotor Sith/Jedi, because you're right. Aside from the various in-game comments, you have absolutely nothing to go on.

But in the same token, for all we know, Traya would bite the big one from Dooku - even though I believe otherwise.

I do somewhat disagree with the last statement. It's entirely possible that Traya is inferior to Dooku in lightsabre combat; and indeed, vice versa.

But we do have accounts of Traya using the force, which indicate that she's fairly powerful. We've got enough information on her force abilities to make an opinion on whether or not she'd best Tyranus.

I do somewhat disagree with the last statement. It's entirely possible that Traya is inferior to Dooku in lightsabre combat; and indeed, vice versa.

Hence why I said in the same token.

But we do have accounts of Traya using the force, which indicate that she's fairly powerful. We've got enough information on her force abilities to make an opinion on whether or not she'd best Tyranus.

As I said, it's her Force powers which would most likely give her the ultimate victory.

Originally posted by Escape81
Hence why I said in the same token.

As I said, it's her Force powers which would most likely give her the ultimate victory.

Ah, apologies for my reading comprehension.

As I have said before, if this is just a saber battle, we have nothing on Traya, but we know Dooku is among the best of all time. And by among I mean one of the best. You're right that Traya isn't Odan Urr but at the same time as a historian, it's somewhat logical to assume that she's done nothing but study ancient sith techniques and at the same time does NOT need to be proficient with, nor rely on a lightsaber, because of her superior force powers. Hence the 3 sabers.. If you can do what she did, why even bother learning to master the saber?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
As I have said before, if this is just a saber battle, we have nothing on Traya, but we know Dooku is among the best of all time. And by among I mean one of the best. You're right that Traya isn't Odan Urr but at the same time as a historian, it's somewhat logical to assume that she's done nothing but study ancient sith techniques and at the same time does NOT need to be proficient with, nor rely on a lightsaber, because of her superior force powers. Hence the 3 sabers.. If you can do what she did, why even bother learning to master the saber?

Erm, did you listen to Kreia? Her entire point was that relying on the force too much was folly, hence why she said what she did on Telos to Atton.

Either way, there's no proof either way. So we'll have to really put this into a force match.

Eh I suppose but at the same time, wouldn't you call 3 sabers against the exile relying too much on the force, as opposed to a 1 on 1 battle. And I know that bit she said but my point was, if you do rely too much on the force and if you're very proficient in the force, you don't really need to learn to be a lightsaber master.

agreed, this could only be debated upon force prowess, until we have some form of canon/non-canon information regarding her ability with the saber.

However, her knowledge of the fighting styles and thier uses could be attributed to her academic studies, yet (I Know Speculation) I feel from the choice of words used in her answers to your questions regarding the styles that she has more than a passing ability in each.

Eh I suppose but at the same time, wouldn't you call 3 sabers against the exile relying too much on the force, as opposed to a 1 on 1 battle. And I know that bit she said but my point was, if you do rely too much on the force and if you're very proficient in the force, you don't really need to learn to be a lightsaber master.

Indeed. She does rely on the force too much. At the Trayus Core, she says:

"Or perhaps these are just the ramblings of an old women who has come to rely too much on the thing she despises."

I'd still imagine that she's keep proficiency with a lightsabre.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
agreed, this could only be debated upon force prowess, until we have some form of canon/non-canon information regarding her ability with the saber.

However, her knowledge of the fighting styles and thier uses could be attributed to her academic studies, yet (I Know Speculation) I feel from the choice of words used in her answers to your questions regarding the styles that she has more than a passing ability in each.

I wouldn't say that she had a complete grounding in them, but she does speak of them with a degree of familiarity. It could just be academic grounding.

All of that makes sense and lets say she is somewhat proficient with a saber. Would it equal the skill of 70 years of lightsaber training? I would doubt that.

Well, Kreia has been around for a while too. It's possible that she perfected a sabre form, but it's just speculation. We really need another source on her combat abilities before we can debate a lightsabre fight any further.

How old would she be in KOTOR II? 60-65? She was a young jedi knight during the Sith War so she's pretty old..

It depends whether or not you believe in the Arren Kae = Traya argument. With her hood up, she doesn't look too old. She could be anything from sixety - seventy +. I'd say she's in her sixties.