I'd love to see this fight. Juggernaut at his peak was able to do as much damage to Thor as the Destroyer ever could, of course he was stopped before he crushed him but let's say if he wasn't. Thor would have died. Even in a weakened state Cain was able to survive being reduced to a skeleton, only to fully heal moments later, so any attempt to desintegrate him would more than likely fail. Someone stated that the Destroyer was going to be pushing Cain around, but I see it the other way around. I see Juggernaut pushing him around, and since neither of these guys tire, this fight would end with them most likely destroying the moon or whatever arena they fought on. BFR like I said before really never shows who truly wins. In the right setting this fight would never end..... Unless Uru gave way due to stress fractures, which could happen, the Destroyer certainly won't be hurting Juggernaut.
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
I'd love to see this fight. Juggernaut at his peak was able to do as much damage to Thor as the Destroyer ever could, of course he was stopped before he crushed him but let's say if he wasn't. Thor would have died. Even in a weakened state Cain was able to survive being reduced to a skeleton, only to fully heal moments later, so any attempt to desintegrate him would more than likely fail. Someone stated that the Destroyer was going to be pushing Cain around, but I see it the other way around. I see Juggernaut pushing him around, and since neither of these guys tire, this fight would end with them most likely destroying the moon or whatever arena they fought on. BFR like I said before really never shows who truly wins. In the right setting this fight would never end..... Unless Uru gave way due to stress fractures, which could happen, the Destroyer certainly won't be hurting Juggernaut.
Juggernaut at his peak wasn't operating at normal levels. Although capable of accomplishing the same by himself, he was actually receiving extra power from Cyttorak in hopes that he'd prove Cyttorak superior to the others exemplars.
Anyhow, Destoyer wont destroy him, but he'd likely beast him.
Originally posted by Larceny
Juggernaut at his peak wasn't operating at normal levels. Although capable of accomplishing the same by himself, he was actually receiving extra power from Cyttorak in hopes that he'd prove Cyttorak superior to the others exemplars.Anyhow, Destoyer wont destroy him, but he'd likely beast him.
Oh, I thought that we were going on the most powerful versions of the combatants? If so 8th Day should be able to overcome Uru over time.
Originally posted by janus77Aren't you the one who thinks Hulk can override Juggernaut's enchantments?
is Odin > Cyttorak?
is Asgard > Cyttorak?
if not ... Juggernaut > Dystroyer.given the failure of Thor to GodBlast Juggernaut, I'm guessing that this will be close, maybe even leaning towards juggernaut as being more durable than anything Asgard can summon forth.
😂
yeah, and Hulk stopped Juggernaut's forward momentum 🙂.
Hulk's also smashed The Destroyer and Juggernaut's also withstood the GodBlast. so both things taken into account, I'd say Destroyer is likely to fail against Juggernaut, since it's physically weaker than a pissed off Hulk (can be busted up by Hulk without much trouble) and since Asgard's magics (as manifested in the GodBlast) aren't strong enough to take down Juggernaut.
Originally posted by janus77With tech... and wasn't Juggy weakened (or so I heard)?
yeah, and Hulk stopped Juggernaut's forward momentum 🙂.Hulk's also smashed The Destroyer and Juggernaut's also withstood the GodBlast. so both things taken into account, I'd say Destroyer is likely to fail against Juggernaut, since it's physically weaker than a pissed off Hulk (can be busted up by Hulk without much trouble) and since Asgard's magics (as manifested in the GodBlast) aren't strong enough to take down Juggernaut.
Hulk got his ass kicked badly by the Destroyer... 😐 In fact, if Hulk didn't get beat up so bad, he wouldn't have been able to grab Maestro and plot device out a win. 🙂
So, basically, Hulk>>>Odin/Asgard/Godblast?
Well, that's stupid as hell...
Plus, the Godblast did the same as Hulk. The G-Blast stopped him, and pushed him back. Hulk eventually stopped him.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
With tech... and wasn't Juggy weakened (or so I heard)?Hulk got his ass kicked badly by the Destroyer... 😐 In fact, if Hulk didn't get beat up so bad, he wouldn't have been able to grab Maestro and plot device out a win. 🙂
So, basically, Hulk>>>Odin/Asgard/Godblast?
Well, that's stupid as hell...
Plus, the Godblast did the same as Hulk. The G-Blast stopped him, and pushed him back. Hulk eventually stopped him.
when WarHulk beat down Juggernaut it was also with physical force, so the basic premise of Juggernaut getting beat down if someone can produce the necessary force held true there too (as it did when Onslaught beat down Juggernaut).
Juggernaut's highly durable not indestructible.
Hulk's gotten "beat down" plenty of times during WWH, it doesn't change the fact that he always comes back stronger.
as for the "Hulk > Odin... " stuff, it's quite similar to saying "WWH > Galactus", because Sentry = Galactus... we know that things are more complex than straight-forward ABC so why build strawmen?
ah, I see you edited that last line in there...
the difference between the Thor - Juggernaut conflict (GodBlast) and the WWH - Juggernaut one is that GodBlast was Thor's trump card, his ultimate weapon of last resort, hence the big talk as he got it ready. Hulk was simply dialing it up a little, nowhere near the upper reaches of his powers. and in a battle about which he was patently indifferent.
just imagine if Hulk had seriously unleashed upon Juggernaut, you've seen a little of the phenomenal powers he possesses, when Meik sent him into a rage... WWH, when he was fighting Juggernaut, was nowhere near to that level.
You and your long posts don't scare me... unless they're really long, then I won't even skim over them. 🙂
Originally posted by janus77No he didn't. As you can plainly see in the panel, Hulk is getting pushed back.
WWH stopped him also, same deal as when Thor GodBlasted Juggernaut, the Juggernaut's momentum/force was such that if it couldn't move forward, which it could not, it would collapse the ground. only difference in the WWH example, WWH was clearly indifferent to the whole 'throwdown' being exclusively focussed upon revenge against the Illuminati and so he bfr'd Juggernaut instead of endangering the X-Men by collapsing the grounds of the mansion.when WarHulk beat down Juggernaut it was also with physical force, so the basic premise of Juggernaut getting beat down if someone can produce the necessary force held true there too (as it did when Onslaught beat down Juggernaut).
Juggernaut's highly durable not indestructible.
Hulk's gotten "beat down" plenty of times during WWH, it doesn't change the fact that he always comes back stronger.
as for the "Hulk > Odin... " stuff, it's quite similar to saying WWH > Galactus, because Sentry = Galactus. we know that things are more complex than straight-forward ABC ...
Juggy was never beat down... he was stopped and thrown though (and we know how many times he's been defeated by being thrown). 🙂
I don't see how that equates into a win... but it would show that he could stop him... as was with Thor. Could Juggernaut have gotten his head cut off? Perhaps, but it's speculation to say either way. But we do know that it was never shown, simply put.
As is with Hulk, Juggy is supposedly indestructible. Yes he's been hurt, but Hulk's also shown to be able to not be able to do something, and then is able to surpass that feat a little later, as has Juggernaut with his indestructibility.
It's purely bias to accept one, but not the other... unless you accept neither.
Ya well, that's irrelevant, because you said Destroyer was smashed by Hulk, which is, and will be, a lie. Pure and simple, you lied.
Hulk got his ass kicked. Hulk plot deviced a win, but he was shown as a clear inferior.
Except the fact that you think that Odin can't dish out the force to hurt Juggernaut, but you think Hulk can. Which, by all means, would make Hulk superior to Odin.
It's not complex at all. Apparently Hulk can dish out more damage then Odin, which would make him more powerful.
Also, it's quite dull of you to bring up the Sentry = Galactus statement.
You don't have to be anywhere near an equal to stalemate someone... especially since Galactus, and Sentry's powers work so differently.
For all you know, Sentry punched Galactus once to no effect, and dodged all of Galactus's attacks.
Nevermind the fact that we have no proof of the fight, except for a joking, lying, Sentry fanboy (Spider-Man), but Quasar has been shown to stalemate Galactus as well... on panel none-the-less. Does that mean Quasar is as powerful as Galactus? Not at all. If Galactus exerted his might into attacks against Quasar, Quasar would have been turned to slag. However, Quasar did it, and Quasar isn't Galactus's equal... not by a long shot. 🙂
Good night Irene.
Originally posted by janus77Hulk was trying to stop him for miles... 😐 or at least waiting for it.
ah, I see you edited that last line in there...the difference between the Thor - Juggernaut conflict (GodBlast) and the WWH - Juggernaut one is that GodBlast was Thor's trump card, his ultimate weapon of last resort, hence the big talk as he got it ready. Hulk was simply dialing it up a little, nowhere near the upper reaches of his powers. and in a battle about which he was patently indifferent.
just imagine if Hulk had seriously unleashed upon Juggernaut, you've seen a little of the phenomenal powers he possesses, when Meik sent him into a rage... WWH, when he was fighting Juggernaut, was nowhere near to that level.
You've no proof that the Hulk that fought Juggy was weaker than the one at the end of WWH. Other than teh gamma, and a footstep causing massive damage.
Unfortunately for the gamma... Hulk was getting other energy funneled in him, so the gamma thing would never happen.
And the footstep causing damage is easily overridden by Eternity stepping on planets and not destroying them (I highly doubt even you would say Hulk is more powerful than Eternity). Not every step has to be a planet destroyer for you to be powerful.
Two universes funneled into Hulk is a lot of power, as well. And, judging by your previous statements, War Hulk was powerful enough to fight Celestials... which, by all rights should make him more powerful than Roid Hulk. 🙂
If he was as powerful as even one Celestial (perhaps that's what you think), and you think Roid Hulk is more powerful... well then... then that's f*cked up. 😐
Also, I will give you this, WWH at the end was angrier, but War Hulk also had a little powerup. It would be impossible to accurately judge them both (at those levels, ie Roid Hulk, and Glowing War Hulk).
of course there's no "proof", since it's only implied throughout WWH that Hulk varies his power-level with respect to the opponent. he smashed Zom/Strange with three blows, yet he traded blows with Warpath and several X-men, when it's blindingly obvious he could have one-shotted/killed them if he had wanted to.
as far as I'm concerned there's +evidence+ to reasonably infer it though, and that's the fact that Hulk was so enraged that he was concerned that he was loosing control of himself. that's all that is necessary imo.
Hulk was literally going to bust up the eastern seaboard with a few steps, an unintended action, merely because he couldn't control the power that was rushing into him
your Eternity example is of course absurd, but even so, it might be suggested that Eternity doesn't break the world because he controls and keeps his power within him, treading lightly upon the Earth, whereas Hulk had reached a level of power he'd never experienced before and so was totally incapable of keeping it all in before he did some serious damage.
as for the Celestials stuff, wha? what's all that in reference to?
I was speaking of WWH not WarHulk. War Hulk's best feat is something WWH did with less of a strain, and whilst not particularly amped. it stands to reason that if he was really unleashing some of the power he demonstrated later, juggernaut would have been busted up far worse than he was at the hands of War Hulk.
Originally posted by Mr. Slippyfist
You and your long posts don't scare me... unless they're really long, then I won't even skim over them. 🙂
No he didn't. As you can plainly see in the panel, Hulk is getting pushed back.Juggy was never beat down... he was stopped and thrown though (and we know how many times he's been defeated by being thrown). 🙂
I don't see how that equates into a win... but it would show that he could stop him... as was with Thor. Could Juggernaut have gotten his head cut off? Perhaps, but it's speculation to say either way. But we do know that it was never shown, simply put.As is with Hulk, Juggy is supposedly indestructible. Yes he's been hurt, but Hulk's also shown to be able to not be able to do something, and then is able to surpass that feat a little later, as has Juggernaut with his indestructibility.
It's purely bias to accept one, but not the other... unless you accept neither.Ya well, that's irrelevant, because you said Destroyer was smashed by Hulk, which is, and will be, a lie. Pure and simple, you lied.
Hulk got his ass kicked. Hulk plot deviced a win, but he was shown as a clear inferior.Except the fact that you think that Odin can't dish out the force to hurt Juggernaut, but you think Hulk can. Which, by all means, would make Hulk superior to Odin.
It's not complex at all. Apparently Hulk can dish out more damage then Odin, which would make him more powerful.Also, it's quite dull of you to bring up the Sentry = Galactus statement.
You don't have to be anywhere near an equal to stalemate someone... especially since Galactus, and Sentry's powers work so differently.
For all you know, Sentry punched Galactus once to no effect, and dodged all of Galactus's attacks.
Nevermind the fact that we have no proof of the fight, except for a joking, lying, Sentry fanboy (Spider-Man), but Quasar has been shown to stalemate Galactus as well... on panel none-the-less. Does that mean Quasar is as powerful as Galactus? Not at all. If Galactus exerted his might into attacks against Quasar, Quasar would have been turned to slag. However, Quasar did it, and Quasar isn't Galactus's equal... not by a long shot. 🙂Good night Irene.
re WWH - Juggernaut, he stopped him, hence the "forward momentum" redirected downwards. play with semantics how you like, the writer admits that Juggernaut's +forward+ momentum wasn't going forward any more ("redirected into the ground"😉. that's something only Thor's GodBlast and WarHulk has previously accomplished. and it's for certain that WWH wasn't concerned about Juggernaut nor intent on beating him down. the whole arc goes to great lengths to show - even stating explicitly through Cho - that Hulk's always got the safety on, that he is always holding back.
as for the WWH > GodBlast :. WWH > Asgard/Odin, it is pretty much the same (specious strawman) as suggesting that WWH > Galactus because Sentry = Galactus.
Odin's powers are greater than The GodBlast, are they not? Asgard isn't being drained of its power when Thor uses the GodBlast is it?
the same way that Galactus might not even have been aware of Sentry when he 'stalemated', so Odin/Asgard wasn't exerting himself when Thor's GodBlast failed to put down Juggernaut.
it's just that Juggernaut is more durable than the big weapon, than the might of Asgard so far demonstrated. and I believe, given Hulk's fight with The Destroyer (it "beat down" on him, as you say but it couldn't put him down). that Juggernaut would fare well.
Long post... I hate long posts. But if I'm going to catch Santa, I gotta stay up, so I got time to burn.
Originally posted by janus77Zom Strange let down his guard. Plus, Angle one-shotted Zom Cho... obviously not that durable.
of course there's no "proof", since it's only implied throughout WWH that Hulk varies his power-level with respect to the opponent. he smashed Zom/Strange with three blows, yet he traded blows with Warpath and several X-men, when it's blindingly obvious he could have one-shotted/killed them if he had wanted to.
He didn't trade blows with the X-Men... he practically raped them. He one-shot head butted Warpath as well...
Originally posted by janus77That's evidence? Wha?
as far as I'm concerned there's +evidence+ to reasonably infer it though, and that's the fact that Hulk was so enraged that he was concerned that he was loosing control of himself. that's all that is necessary imo.
Originally posted by janus77He couldn't control it... but War Hulk could because of the tech. 🙂
Hulk was literally going to bust up the eastern seaboard with a few steps, an unintended action, merely because he couldn't control the power that was rushing into himyour Eternity example is of course absurd, but even so, it might be suggested that Eternity doesn't break the world because he controls and keeps his power within him, treading lightly upon the Earth, whereas Hulk had reached a level of power he'd never experienced before and so was totally incapable of keeping it all in before he did some serious damage.
Even then, he's still supposedly omnipotent, and perhaps as heavy as the universe. Also, Galactus has smashed Surfer into a building before with his hands. The building wasn't destroyed. Would this make WWH higher than Galactus?
Maybe these examples are absurd, but I just don't see how him rocking the world puts him at this ridiculous level when more powerful beings haven't done as much damage... and they are by all rights, more powerful.
Originally posted by janus77Just using examples of stuff you've said in the past, in comparison to War and WWH. 🙂
as for the Celestials stuff, wha? what's all that in reference to?
I was speaking of WWH not WarHulk. War Hulk's best feat is something WWH did with less of a strain, and whilst not particularly amped. it stands to reason that if he was really unleashing some of the power he demonstrated later, juggernaut would have been busted up far worse than he was at the hands of War Hulk.
He didn't stop him, and he was getting pushed back, before he moved out of the way.
He wasn't busted up in his fight with War, he was only stopped, thrown, and dumbfounded.
Plus, that's pretty baseless speculation.
Originally posted by janus77He smashed it in the end, because he started to fight Maestro, and close his visor right before he was about to destroy Hulk.
regarding the Destroyer fight, I'll get hold of the scans when I can, as I recall he did smash it in the end, though he was getting beat down (as if that means anything to The Hulk - Zom/Strange? Sentry?) before that.
Oh please. He was pissed in the fight with Destroyer. He got his ass handed him.
Originally posted by janus77Perhaps, but it certainly doesn't look like that to me. Especially since the ground was being torn up before they locked arms. Plus, even then, Hulk's feet were being pushed back.
re WWH - Juggernaut, he stopped him, hence the "forward momentum" redirected downwards. play with semantics how you like, the writer admits that Juggernaut's +forward+ momentum wasn't going forward any more ("redirected into the ground"😉. that's something only Thor's GodBlast and WarHulk has previously accomplished. and it's for certain that WWH wasn't concerned about Juggernaut nor intent on beating him down. the whole arc goes to great lengths to show - even stating explicitly through Cho - that Hulk's always got the safety on, that he is always holding back.
Hulk didn't want to hurt innocent people... Hulk knew of no innocents that were in danger in the fight with Juggy until X said something, and that's when Hulk moved out of the way.
Originally posted by janus77I don't understand what the hell you tried to say here.
as for the WWH > GodBlast :. WWH > Asgard/Odin, it is pretty much the same (specious strawman) as suggesting that WWH > Galactus because Sentry = Galactus.
But, the only part I actually got, was that Sentry = Galactus, and that's false.
Originally posted by janus77Most likely, however...
Odin's powers are greater than The GodBlast, are they not? Asgard isn't being drained of its power when Thor uses the GodBlast is it?
given the failure of Thor to GodBlast Juggernaut, I'm guessing that this will be close, maybe even leaning towards juggernaut as being more durable than anything Asgard can summon forth."
And since you think Hulk can override Juggy's enchantments...
Also, you clearly don't understand how the G-Blast works as well. It is a mix of Thor's godly might, and Mjolnir, not Asgard.
Originally posted by janus77We don't know the circumstances of the Galactus fight.
the same way that Galactus might not even have been aware of Sentry when he 'stalemated', so Odin/Asgard wasn't exerting himself when Thor's GodBlast failed to put down Juggernaut.
Plus, that was Thor's G-Blast, nothing more, nothing less. The same thing has made Galactus run off in fear of his life, and crushed a harder than Celestial object (Exitar's headcase. Granted, he protected his hammer with the Belt of Strength, but it was never said to be stronger).
Although, I'm not sure it was fully Juggy's durability, but rather his enchantment of unstoppable protecting him.
Originally posted by janus77Destroyer started to beat him down in like two or three pages... he didn't have time to finish him.
it's just that Juggernaut is more durable than the big weapon, than the might of Asgard so far demonstrated. and I believe, given Hulk's fight with The Destroyer (it "beat down" on him, as you say but it couldn't put him down). that Juggernaut would fare well.
Plus, I'm not sure how Destroyer's beam would do against Juggernaut. Although, if apparently Hulk can punch him out, then the beam will rip Juggy apart.
From what I've read in the above posts, the Destroyer these days is nothing like when it first appeared. My impression was that it was the most powerful character Marvel had yet created. Back then, it was intro'd as the "Indestructible Destroyer." Animated by an ordinary mortal, it was manhandling Thor in a way I've never seen Hulk or Juggernaut do, and it could unleash bolts of "limitless force" (that's how it effortlessly sliced Mjolner in half). So based on this: unless Juggernaut has limitless invulnerability, the Destroyer wins. At the very least, it could trap him the way it trapped Thor: first by liquifying the floor so he sinks down to his waist, then solidifying the floor to the hardness of Asgardian diamonds (which would be incomparably more effective than trapping him in concrete).
Originally posted by Mindship
From what I've read in the above posts, the Destroyer these days is nothing like when it first appeared. My impression was that it was the most powerful character Marvel had yet created. Back then, it was intro'd as the "Indestructible Destroyer." Animated by an ordinary mortal, it was manhandling Thor in a way I've never seen Hulk or Juggernaut do, and it could unleash bolts of "limitless force" (that's how it effortlessly sliced Mjolner in half). So based on this: unless Juggernaut has limitless invulnerability, the Destroyer wins. At the very least, it could trap him the way it trapped Thor: first by liquifying the floor so he sinks down to his waist, then solidifying the floor to the hardness of Asgardian diamonds (which would be incomparably more effective than trapping him in concrete).
All hail the Des...! Look, Juggernaut should be able to survive anything that The Destroyer throws at him, but as we all know everything that has substance to it has a breaking point unless stated otherwise, Juggernaut should fall under this theory as well, except for one little thing. He can heal, and at a rapid rate. Juggernaut has this trademark you see, which means that nothing can stop him, he can be slowed down for a while but cement, nor Asgardian diamond is stopping him he'll break out of it because it would never touch his skin. Spiderman never stopped Juggernaut he only slowed him down as madame Web told Peter that he has no chance of stopping Cain only slowing him. People need to get the facts straight about that fight. Spiderman beat Firelord not Juggernaut.
8th day Juggernaut was going to crush Thor as easily as The Destroyer did when he gave him a compound fracture to his arm. Thor even said it himself that if he did not escape quickly that Cain was going to kill him (concerning his fight with 8th day Juggs). The only thing that stops Cain from normally being as powerful as he was is his mindset. I'm not saying that Juggernaut is going to have a cake walk, but what I am saying is that he should be able to outlast even the Destroyer and perhaps over time compromise the armor itself, the Celestials did it.... and lots quicker than Juggernaut would, but Cain is effectively immortal and he does not tire, need to eat, or breathe. The disintegration beam is another thing. But can is it greater than the enchantment that surround Juggernaut? The Godblast failed aginst Cain the disintegration beam should as well. Would Juggernaut use his shield while facing an opponent of this caliber? More than likely.
What this all means, is that the two of these guys could fight forever, I just have doubts that anything could take a 1000 ton pounding forever and not grow stress fractures. This would and should be without PIS/CIS be a battle of attrition, and Cain should win out in the long run... lets say a few years or so. Why? Because Cain heals the Destroyer does not have a self repair routine, if it did surely it would have overcome the Celestials in time.