Originally posted by jaden101
Yes it is irrational for that person. Particularly when there are many other explanations for "visions" other than attributing them to God.
It's perfectly rational to believe what your senses tell you. Your reasoning forms a vicious circle, which is in and of itself not rational.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
And if your scenes tell you it is real then it would be irrational to think other wise.
Not really. You don't wake from every dream thinking that the stuff really happened despite your senses being used in the dream. You'd apply rational thinking and say "That wasn't real"
Same concept applies if you've ever taken hallucinagenic drugs. Your senses might well tell you that something is right there in front of you but when you're capable of thinking about it rationally, you know it wasn't real.
Adam & Eve
Originally posted by ushomefree
Adam & Eve
Wow, that is sorely lacking Biblical accuracy.
Blasphemer 😐
Originally posted by jaden101However that is flawed because one you know that you just woke up and the other that you were taking drugs. Even with these senerios you body doesn't know the difference and perceives them to be real and acts accordingly, it is only when you wake up or come off the drugs are you presented with new information. If you didn't know that you feel asleep and didn't know that you woke up you wouldn't know the difference or if you were given drugs that made you see things. If in either of these cases you would think theme to be real until other information was gathered to prove other wise. You seem to keep missing this point. If you knew that you were taking drugs and you saw God and believed it was him then yes that would be an irrational decision but if you didn't know that you were given drugs and you saw God that wouldn't be an irrational decision. As far as you would know you are clean and sober and have you wits about you.
Not really. You don't wake from every dream thinking that the stuff really happened despite your senses being used in the dream. You'd apply rational thinking and say "That wasn't real"Same concept applies if you've ever taken hallucinagenic drugs. Your senses might well tell you that something is right there in front of you but when you're capable of thinking about it rationally, you know it wasn't real.
Originally posted by ushomefreeShould be Adam & Eve and what God did wrong 😆 after all there are no other men in the world and the apple hasn't even been eaten yet. 😉
Adam & Eve
Originally posted by Da Pittman
However that is flawed because one you know that you just woke up and the other that you were taking drugs. Even with these senerios you body doesn't know the difference and perceives them to be real and acts accordingly, it is only when you wake up or come off the drugs are you presented with new information. If you didn't know that you feel asleep and didn't know that you woke up you wouldn't know the difference or if you were given drugs that made you see things. If in either of these cases you would think theme to be real until other information was gathered to prove other wise. You seem to keep missing this point. If you knew that you were taking drugs and you saw God and believed it was him then yes that would be an irrational decision but if you didn't know that you were given drugs and you saw God that wouldn't be an irrational decision. As far as you would know you are clean and sober and have you wits about you.
It doesn't matter if it's a dream, a state brought on by drugs or a "vision"....At some point it ends...and It's that change back to reality that makes you realise that what you just went through wasn't real and so believing it to be is irrational.
Originally posted by jaden101And if you didn't know that you were on drugs or that you were asleep how exactly are you supposed to know???
It doesn't matter if it's a dream, a state brought on by drugs or a "vision"....At some point it ends...and It's that change back to reality that makes you realise that what you just went through wasn't real and so believing it to be is irrational.
Originally posted by jaden101And exactly HOW would you know??? How EXACTLY would you know that you were given drugs, how EXACTLY would you know that you woke up when you didn't even know you were asleep?
When you wake up or when the drugs where off you'd know.
Or are you so special that you know when things happen to you that you don't know about? You seem to have this special ability that they rest of the world does not, like a little guy standing in the corner of your brain letting you know what it is up to even when it doesn't know.
Originally posted by Da Pittman
And exactly HOW would you know??? How EXACTLY would you know that you were given drugs, how EXACTLY would you know that you woke up when you didn't even know you were asleep?Or are you so special that you know when things happen to you that you don't know about? You seem to have this special ability that they rest of the world does not, like a little guy standing in the corner of your brain letting you know what it is up to even when it doesn't know.
Don't try and patronise me.
You can quite easily get tests done to see if you'd been drugged. That's the rational thing to do. Not to instantly believe that you've been spoken to by God.
If you didn't know you were asleep and didn't know you'd woken up (aside from the sleeping and dreaming within a dream scenario) then you've got far bigger problems than "seeing God"
And believe me. It doesn't make me special that I know when I'm asleep and it really doesn't make me special if I know when i'm on drugs, whether i've taken them myself or been spiked. I've had both done and it's easy to discern from "visions"
Originally posted by jaden101You are missing the point and I don't know any way else to tell you. Why would you got get a drug test if you didn't know you were given drugs? If everything you saw you thought was real WHY would you get a drug test? Do you get a drug test anytime something strange happens to you? If you thought you saw something do you get a drug test?
Don't try and patronise me.You can quite easily get tests done to see if you'd been drugged. That's the rational thing to do. Not to instantly believe that you've been spoken to by God.
If you didn't know you were asleep and didn't know you'd woken up (aside from the sleeping and dreaming within a dream scenario) then you've got far bigger problems than "seeing God"
And believe me. It doesn't make me special that I know when I'm asleep and it really doesn't make me special if I know when i'm on drugs, whether i've taken them myself or been spiked. I've had both done and it's easy to discern from "visions"
I can't see any other way of telling you this and you are starting to sound like a broken record and I have better things to do with my time then try and make you understand this point. You keep on your marry little way and believe what you want to believe but I'm through with this topic with you. Maybe some other time we can discuss something else.
**grabs beer and enjoys weekend**
Originally posted by Da Pittman
You are missing the point and I don't know any way else to tell you. Why would you got get a drug test if you didn't know you were given drugs? If everything you saw you thought was real WHY would you get a drug test? Do you get a drug test anytime something strange happens to you? If you thought you saw something do you get a drug test?
Happens all the time when people are spiked when out in nightclubs?
We're not talking about something strange happening to you though are we? We're talking about seeing things which aren't real. Something which is a known effect of certain drugs so why would you logically and rationally think it was God talking to you when you know that there are drugs that exist that make you see things and you know that there are incidents of people being given drugs without their knowledge?
Surely the logical and rational thing isn't to automatically think it was God?
I can't see any other way of telling you this and you are starting to sound like a broken record and I have better things to do with my time then try and make you understand this point. You keep on your marry little way and believe what you want to believe but I'm through with this topic with you. Maybe some other time we can discuss something else.
It's you that's blatently lacking the understanding...Not me.
Originally posted by jaden101
Surely the logical and rational thing isn't to automatically think it was God?
in the long run, I agree with you, that an informed person should realize there are other explanations for their perceptions than "god" or whatever impossible thing they have perceived, we would likely fall into a minority of doing this in practice.
people trust their senses, they have to. Hypothetically, not only impossible, but even the benign can be hallucinated. My friend has talked to me about having dreams where he does laundry. By that argument, constant drug tests should be done to make sure that every encounter or situation you find yourself in is actually real. The assumption that what we experience is what is real is very hard to shake, and for someone who believes that God does talk to people, they'd see no reason to find another explanation.
I agree also that someone who has had their drink spiked can probably ascertain that is what happened the day after. BTW, what bars do you go to where people have their drinks spiked with powerful psychedelics? those are parties I need to be attending.
Originally posted by jaden101I do not have a lack of understanding, I have responded to each of your question in kind. You keep missing the point, why do you have to be at a nightclub, why not at a local cafe, on the street or what ever. You breath in some toxic chemical that has no smell or taste. How are you going to know that (and it doesn't even have to be God) that you saw something that wasn't real. What if it was a friend in High School that you haven't seen in years, an old girlfriend or what ever. Would believing in aliens be irrational? Would believing that the universe as we know it is only an atom in a giants fingernail be irrational? How about believing in RODS? It is how you came to this decision and what knowledge that you used and had to make this decision that will make it irrational and not the choice it self.
Happens all the time when people are spiked when out in nightclubs?We're not talking about something strange happening to you though are we? We're talking about seeing things which aren't real. Something which is a known effect of certain drugs so why would you logically and rationally think it was God talking to you when you know that there are drugs that exist that make you see things and you know that there are incidents of people being given drugs without their knowledge?
Surely the logical and rational thing isn't to automatically think it was God?
It's you that's blatently lacking the understanding...Not me.
You also assume that the person effected would also know about drugs and the human condition that could cause them to see things, what if this person is not aware of these things? Was is it irrational to believe in God 1,000 years ago? How about 900, 800, 700 and so on? At what point in time did believing that God created everything become irrational thinking? When the theory of the Big Bang was created? So at that point if you believed in God you were irrational because there was a theory of how the universe was created other than God but before that you were OK?
Irrational is the lack of understanding and in order to understand something you must know about it. Try explaining the speed of light to someone that doesn't understand science, or try and explain infinite mass to that same person. Both of these things would be far out concepts that do not follow their understanding of the world and would seem irrational to believe in them.
I do not have a lack of understanding, I have responded to each of your question in kind. You keep missing the point, why do you have to be at a nightclub, why not at a local cafe, on the street or what ever. You breath in some toxic chemical that has no smell or taste. How are you going to know that (and it doesn't even have to be God) that you saw something that wasn't real. What if it was a friend in High School that you haven't seen in years, an old girlfriend or what ever. Would believing in aliens be irrational? Would believing that the universe as we know it is only an atom in a giants fingernail be irrational? How about believing in RODS? It is how you came to this decision and what knowledge that you used and had to make this decision that will make it irrational and not the choice it self.
Despite the fact that you're wandering into the realms of the extremely unlikely (I don't know of any occurence of someone sitting at a cafe and breathing in a hallucinigen), even if you did see an old high school friend, the difference is at least you know that person exists so at least there is some basis for the belief that what you saw was real. Seeing God, on the other hand, is a nonsense.
Unless you want to complicate things further by saying "what if you saw your old school friend and he/she told you that he/she was God?"
But we've wandered off the point somewhat. My point is that believing you saw God for real as opposed to thinking that you've been the victim of a drug spiking is irrational because there is proof the the latter happens and there is no evidence that the former does.
Believing that aliens may exist, from a statistical standpoint, isn't irrational. Believing that the universe is an atom under a giant's fingernail is irrational because a rational decision is based on things can be shown to be true. God cannot.
Fair enough, once you've eliminated all the other possibilities for your "experience" then you're free to believe what you want but it still doesn't make that belief rational. Jumping to that conclusion right from the off is also....irrational and illogical.
You also assume that the person effected would also know about drugs and the human condition that could cause them to see things, what if this person is not aware of these things?
If a person isn't aware that drugs exist in the world then that person is extremely likely to be incapable of rational decision making.
Was is it irrational to believe in God 1,000 years ago? How about 900, 800, 700 and so on? At what point in time did believing that God created everything become irrational thinking? When the theory of the Big Bang was created? So at that point if you believed in God you were irrational because there was a theory of how the universe was created other than God but before that you were OK?
No because there still was no evidence that God was real. Belief on the basis of nothing is irrational.
Irrational is the lack of understanding and in order to understand something you must know about it. Try explaining the speed of light to someone that doesn't understand science, or try and explain infinite mass to that same person. Both of these things would be far out concepts that do not follow their understanding of the world and would seem irrational to believe in them.
Both of these things can be shown to be based in the laws of physics. Understanding or lack of does not effect their veracity.
I think we're not going to convince each other either way though.
Originally posted by jaden101I think it comes down to what you and I consider to be a rational decision where you consider it to be all information that is known to everyone and I consider it to be all known information for the person.
Despite the fact that you're wandering into the realms of the extremely unlikely (I don't know of any occurence of someone sitting at a cafe and breathing in a hallucinigen), even if you did see an old high school friend, the difference is at least you know that person exists so at least there is some basis for the belief that what you saw was real. Seeing God, on the other hand, is a nonsense.Unless you want to complicate things further by saying "what if you saw your old school friend and he/she told you that he/she was God?"
But we've wandered off the point somewhat. My point is that believing you saw God for real as opposed to thinking that you've been the victim of a drug spiking is irrational because there is proof the the latter happens and there is no evidence that the former does.
Believing that aliens may exist, from a statistical standpoint, isn't irrational. Believing that the universe is an atom under a giant's fingernail is irrational because a rational decision is based on things can be shown to be true. God cannot.
Fair enough, once you've eliminated all the other possibilities for your "experience" then you're free to believe what you want but it still doesn't make that belief rational. Jumping to that conclusion right from the off is also....irrational and illogical.
If a person isn't aware that drugs exist in the world then that person is extremely likely to be incapable of rational decision making.
No because there still was no evidence that God was real. Belief on the basis of nothing is irrational.
Both of these things can be shown to be based in the laws of physics. Understanding or lack of does not effect their veracity.
I think we're not going to convince each other either way though.
Aliens can not be shown to be true, the big bang can not be shown to be true, string theory can not be shown to be true, how old the Earth is can not be shown to be true and many other things as well.
God example: Sitting at home and see a vision of God. First thought I'm not drunk, I'm not on drugs and I'm in good health and not crazy. No one else is around me to see what I see was that really God? Go to the doctor and get a check up, no drugs, no brain damage and everything checks out. So I must have seen god, what else could it be? This is a rational line of thinking for this person, they didn't immediately think it was God and could have been something else and went to the doctor to get checked out and has a clean bill of health so then what must this person think it is? The doctor is completely wrong and I'm actually crazy and on drugs or that it was God?
I think it comes down to what you and I consider to be a rational decision where you consider it to be all information that is known to everyone and I consider it to be all known information for the person.
In other words I believe rational decisions are based on actual evidence and you don't.
God example: Sitting at home and see a vision of God. First thought I'm not drunk, I'm not on drugs and I'm in good health and not crazy. No one else is around me to see what I see was that really God? Go to the doctor and get a check up, no drugs, no brain damage and everything checks out. So I must have seen god, what else could it be? This is a rational line of thinking for this person, they didn't immediately think it was God and could have been something else and went to the doctor to get checked out and has a clean bill of health so then what must this person think it is? The doctor is completely wrong and I'm actually crazy and on drugs or that it was God?
That's just the long way of saying what I just said. Once you've eliminated all the rational explanations then you're free to believe whatever you like. It still doesn't make that belief rational. Although your explanation does not negate all the other reasons for hallucinations.
We've also extremely diverged from the intial discussion in which you said belief in God doesn't make you irrational. This is something noone has said. It's merely the belief in God without any evidence for it that makes the belief in God irrational.
Unless you're proposing that a hallucination or "vision" is proof for the existence of God?