Creation vs Evolution

Started by Alliance221 pages

Originally posted by Nellinator
I was of the same mind on most points except these.
1) Prions and viruses do not proliferate on their own. They require living cells to reproduce themselves. That's a big problem.

2) The evolution of sexual reproduction is unexplainable as far as I know. One would have to produce a female part of the genetic material and the other the male. This would not randomly occur in organisms that had previously reproduced asexually. They would then have to produce many offspring for one to survive and reproduce as well.

3) The formation of genetic material is extremely unlikely do to the reactivity of the substances present within living things. These chemicals would far more readily react with other substances present in the environment.

4) But, once again, prions and viruses cannot proliferate on their own.

1. Prions don't they are simply proteins that cause other proteins to refold. Viruses need cells to replicate, but they have DNA and simple machinery and represent proto-cells.

2. Not true. Meiosis itself can represent sexual reproduction (two gametes coming together to form a new organism). Mitosis are exceedinly similar processes...its not hard to see how one would develop from the other. Many species, such as Yeasts can produce both sexually and asexually, so a transition between the two is clearly evident. Its not hard to map similarities in genes and then compare reproductive behavior.

3. What substances were these that are sooo reactive with nucleic acids? Nucleic acids are found incide libid bilayers because it protects the molecule from most harmful compounds. You can start teh first organism with very small molecules and then build up to the meters in length (human DNA).

4. See 1.

Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by ~Flamboyant~
Sorry if this has been done, but which do you beleive in and why?

I personally beleive in the Evolution theory, because it has basically been scientifically proven. Especially by the Hard-Weinberg Principle.

Evolution. To believe in Creationism is just plain stupid and being ignorant of everything the world generally accepts are true. Now, this does not imply that I believe that the earth randomly formed, I do believe that it was created by God. Like God started the process, and evolution kind of took over to form the animals we know today.

Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by Naz
Evolution. To believe in Creationism is just plain stupid and being ignorant of everything the world generally accepts are true. Now, this does not imply that I believe that the earth randomly formed, I do believe that it was created by God. Like God started the process, and evolution kind of took over to form the animals we know today.

As you said Creationsim (god said bang and it happened) is not so rediculous.

What IS rediculous is the ideologues that think god exists outside of science.

Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by Alliance
As you said Creationsim (god said bang and it happened) is not so rediculous.

What IS rediculous is the ideologues that think god exists outside of science.

It is silly to be firmly convicted to the belief that the world was created in exactly six days, exactly the way it's written in the Bible. Exactly.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You're mixing Truth with error. Evolution and God are diametrically opposed. They do not coexist. God has declared by His Word how He created the Heavens (i.e. space, atmosphere) and the earth: by His words.
Brings to mind the quote from the Chuck Heston Ten Commandments film:

"So let it be written, so let it be done"

"God said,'Let there be...'" only infers "poof there it is" creation iff* your interpretation is correct. God could have used any process he chose. "God said" verse only requires "poof there it is" creation as far as "So let it be written, so let it be done" requires that the Egyptian writings required the pyramids to be "poof there it is" created.

Edit: * iff, for those that don't know stands for "if and only if", it is not a typo.

Originally posted by Alliance
As you said Creationsim (god said bang and it happened) is not so rediculous.

What IS rediculous is the ideologues that think god exists outside of science.

True.

Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by ~Flamboyant~
Sorry if this has been done, but which do you beleive in and why?

I personally beleive in the Evolution theory, because it has basically been scientifically proven. Especially by the Hard-Weinberg Principle.

You are sadly mistaken for evolution has not been proven.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0215hox_hype.asp

Hox Hype
Has Macro-evolution Been Proven?
By David A. DeWitt, Ph.D
Associate Professor of Biology, and Associate Director, Creation Studies at Liberty University

From the hype of the press release, it would seem that evolution was finally proven once and for all and the creationists should just give up and go home. But far from refuting creation, the scientific evidence is completely consistent with creation!

The press release from UCSD said in part:

‘Biologists at the University of California, San Diego have uncovered the first genetic evidence that explains how large-scale alterations to body plans were accomplished during the early evolution of animals…. The achievement is a landmark in evolutionary biology, not only because it shows how new animal body plans could arise from a simple genetic mutation, but because it effectively answers a major criticism creationists had long leveled against evolution—the absence of a genetic mechanism that could permit animals to introduce radical new body designs.’

Evolutionary biologists believe that the six-legged insect body plan evolved from crustacean-like ancestors (including creatures like shrimp) that lost the large number of legs.1 Such a radical change would require mutation(s) that result in the suppression of leg development. McGinnis and coworkers believed that they found the mutation and the gene responsible for this change. However, careful examination of their efforts reveals that the situation is much more complicated.

The scientists were investigating Ubx, a Hox gene which suppresses leg development in flies. Hox genes are master control switches that control the body plan. Specific Hox genes may control where the head forms, where limbs form, or a tail or even wings. These master switches work like circuit breakers and either turn on or turn off an array of other genes. Hox genes can be expressed in abnormal locations and either prevent development of structures or promote their development in very unusual places. For example Pax-6 expression controls the development of eyes. A fly with abnormal expression could form an eye on a leg, the antenna or even abdomen.2

The researchers found that the Ubx gene from a fly completely prevented leg development while the same gene from Artemia, a brine shrimp, only suppressed leg development 15%. They then mutated the Artemia Ubx gene and found that this version was much more effective at blocking leg formation. They postulated that such a mutation probably occurred in the crustaceans that were the ancestors of six-legged insects.3

The fact that scientists can significantly alter the body plan does not prove macro-evolution nor does it refute creation. Successful macro-evolution requires the addition of NEW information and NEW genes that produce NEW proteins that are found in NEW organs and systems.

For example, a single mutation that might prevent legs from forming is much different from a mutation that produces legs in the first place. Making a leg would require a large number of different genes present simultaneously. Moreover, where do the wings come from? Just because an organism loses a few legs doesn’t convert a shrimp-like creature into a fly. Since crustaceans don’t have wings, where does the information come from to make wings in flies?

Having the wings themselves is not even enough. Researchers in another study have found that the subcellular location of metabolic enzymes is important for the functional muscle contraction required for flight.4 Indeed, the metabolic enzymes must be in very close proximity with the cytoskeletal proteins that are involved in muscle contraction. If the enzymes are not in the exact location in which they are needed within the cell, the flies cannot fly. This study bears out the fact that ‘the presence of active enzymes in the cell is not sufficient for muscle function; colocalization of the enzymes is required.’ It also ‘…requires a highly organized cellular system.’

Therefore, changes in body plan—no matter how dramatic—do not automatically prove macro-evolution. Losing structures, or misplacing their development, should not be equated with the increased information that is needed to form novel structures and cellular systems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ronshaugen, M, McGinnis, N, and McGinnis, W. Nature advance online publication, 6 February 2002 (DOI 10.1038/nature716) [RETURN TO TEXT]

Halder, G, Callaerts, P, Gehring WJ. Science 267:1788-92 1995 [RETURN TO TEXT]

Ref. 1 [RETURN TO TEXT]

Wojtas K, Slepecky N, von Kalm L, Sullivan D. Mol Biol Cell 8:1665-75 1997. [RETURN TO TEXT]

Dr David DeWitt
Creationist Biochemist and Neuroscientist
(USA)

Dr David A. DeWitt received a B.S. in biochemistry from Michigan State University and a Ph.D. in neuroscience from Case Western Reserve University. Currently an associate professor of biology at Liberty University, he is active in teaching and research. Liberty University recognized Dr DeWitt with the 2000-2001 President's Award for Teaching Excellence. He teaches upper level biology courses in cell biology and biochemistry as well as ‘History of Life.’ The latter is a required course on the creation/evolution controversy. His primary research efforts have been to understand the mechanisms causing cellular damage in Alzheimer's disease. He has authored and co-authored articles that have appeared in peer-reviewed journals such as Brain Research and Experimental Neurology.

Dr DeWitt is also associate director of the Center for Creation Studies at Liberty University and an adjunct faculty member of the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego, California where he has taught graduate level cell biology. Dr DeWitt served on the board of directors of the Alexandra Foundation and currently is their Director of Creation Education. He has written articles and given many presentations on creation/evolution issues. He is a member of the Society for Neuroscience, the Creation Research Society, and is currently chair of the biology section of the Virginia Academy of Sciences. He lives in Lynchburg, Virginia with his wife Marci and his three daughters.

Publications
The Origin of Life: A Problem for Evolution
Stem Cell Decision not the End of Ethical Dilemmas

wow, I wonder if u understood any of that, and how what he is saying is merely ONE understanding of an event. There are always , ALWAYS more than one explanation for something and you are simply giving us examples that adhere to explanation that fits to you and what you have been taught.

So dont come here saying that the one explanation that you see, IS THE ONLY explanation. We can give allllllllllllllll the other explanations in the and as long as it is not in accordance with your view, you will tell us that we are wrong.

Just like how i believe in Evolution and GOD. I believe that evolution was god's way of getting it right. Someone making something, does not get it right on the first try, they keep making modifications until they get what they want, or what they think they want. Evolution, creation, destruction , they are the works of the hand of god, it always has been and it always be. Thats my belief, and I am not trying to enforce it on you, nor am i saying what you constantly barage us with is wrong niether. They all have flaws. So learn to look beyond your scope. Please!!!

I am not debating with you right now JIA. Does, what I just said, make any sense to you??

Originally posted by fini
wow, I wonder if u understood any of that, and how what he is saying is merely ONE understanding of an event. There are always , ALWAYS more than one explanation for something and you are simply giving us examples that adhere to explanation that fits to you and what you have been taught.

So dont come here saying that the one explanation that you see, IS THE ONLY explanation. We can give allllllllllllllll the other explanations in the and as long as it is not in accordance with your view, you will tell us that we are wrong.

Just like how i believe in Evolution and GOD. I believe that evolution was god's way of getting it right. Someone making something, does not get it right on the first try, they keep making modifications until they get what they want, or what they think they want. Evolution, creation, destruction , they are the works of the hand of god, it always has been and it always be. Thats my belief, and I am not trying to enforce it on you, nor am i saying what you constantly barage us with is wrong niether. They all have flaws. So learn to look beyond your scope. Please!!!

I am not debating with you right now JIA. Does, what I just said, make any sense to you??

I can barely see past all of the bitterness. Are you even capable of just talking without sounding bitter? You rankle when you talk as if you are suffering from deep hurt of some kind. I hope you get some help or treatment if that is the case.

"...they are the works of the hand of god...."

They are not works of the hand of the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob.

"...Thats my belief,...."

This statement that you made makes sense to me. It is just, and only, your belief--nothing more.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
It is just, and only, your belief--nothing more.
Practice what you preach.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Practice what you preach.

I don't think that is possible for him.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't think that is possible for him.
Something like the mountain and Muhammad thing 😉

That is the problem. Does someone practice what Jesus preaches or Paul....

Originally posted by debbiejo
That is the problem. Does someone practice what Jesus preaches or Paul....
Lol, you are a little like JIA, always bringing that up... 😆 ...j/k dj you know I like ya 😉

Originally posted by Regret
Something like the mountain and Muhammad thing 😉

His world is formed around a ridged mythology. He can't accept some facts as real, because his world would shatter. That is what happened to me.

An

Originally posted by Regret
Lol, you are a little like JIA, always bringing that up... 😆 ...j/k dj you know I like ya 😉
You compare me to him??? 😆

and yet I tell you this If anyone speaks words that are not from me, then are not from my father 🙄

Jesus

Yes, reposting the view of faculty, from a self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christian school, from a website that distributes information claiming the Earth is 6,000 years old, clearly is sufficient to discount evidence for evolution. The theory of evolution is a theory in the same sense the theory of gravity is a theory.

I believe in a higher power, but don't believe in the creation story. For one, there have been bones found in Africa much older than the arrival of Adam and Eve. The Cain and Abel story doesn't sit right with me either. There are four people on the planet Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel. Cain kills Abel leaving three. God puts a marking on Cain head, so that who ever should find him they will not kill him. Cain finds his wife, but where did she come from? If only three remains on the planet. These are two of many examples that I question.

Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are sadly mistaken for evolution has not been proven.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0215hox_hype.asp

Hox Hype
Has Macro-evolution Been Proven?
[B]By David A. DeWitt, Ph.D
Associate Professor of Biology, and Associate Director, Creation Studies at Liberty University

From the hype of the press release, it would seem that evolution was finally proven once and for all and the creationists should just give up and go home. But far from refuting creation, the scientific evidence is completely consistent with creation!

The press release from UCSD said in part:

‘Biologists at the University of California, San Diego have uncovered the first genetic evidence that explains how large-scale alterations to body plans were accomplished during the early evolution of animals…. The achievement is a landmark in evolutionary biology, not only because it shows how new animal body plans could arise from a simple genetic mutation, but because it effectively answers a major criticism creationists had long leveled against evolution—the absence of a genetic mechanism that could permit animals to introduce radical new body designs.’

Evolutionary biologists believe that the six-legged insect body plan evolved from crustacean-like ancestors (including creatures like shrimp) that lost the large number of legs.1 Such a radical change would require mutation(s) that result in the suppression of leg development. McGinnis and coworkers believed that they found the mutation and the gene responsible for this change. However, careful examination of their efforts reveals that the situation is much more complicated.

The scientists were investigating Ubx, a Hox gene which suppresses leg development in flies. Hox genes are master control switches that control the body plan. Specific Hox genes may control where the head forms, where limbs form, or a tail or even wings. These master switches work like circuit breakers and either turn on or turn off an array of other genes. Hox genes can be expressed in abnormal locations and either prevent development of structures or promote their development in very unusual places. For example Pax-6 expression controls the development of eyes. A fly with abnormal expression could form an eye on a leg, the antenna or even abdomen.2

The researchers found that the Ubx gene from a fly completely prevented leg development while the same gene from Artemia, a brine shrimp, only suppressed leg development 15%. They then mutated the Artemia Ubx gene and found that this version was much more effective at blocking leg formation. They postulated that such a mutation probably occurred in the crustaceans that were the ancestors of six-legged insects.3

The fact that scientists can significantly alter the body plan does not prove macro-evolution nor does it refute creation. Successful macro-evolution requires the addition of NEW information and NEW genes that produce NEW proteins that are found in NEW organs and systems.

For example, a single mutation that might prevent legs from forming is much different from a mutation that produces legs in the first place. Making a leg would require a large number of different genes present simultaneously. Moreover, where do the wings come from? Just because an organism loses a few legs doesn’t convert a shrimp-like creature into a fly. Since crustaceans don’t have wings, where does the information come from to make wings in flies?

Having the wings themselves is not even enough. Researchers in another study have found that the subcellular location of metabolic enzymes is important for the functional muscle contraction required for flight.4 Indeed, the metabolic enzymes must be in very close proximity with the cytoskeletal proteins that are involved in muscle contraction. If the enzymes are not in the exact location in which they are needed within the cell, the flies cannot fly. This study bears out the fact that ‘the presence of active enzymes in the cell is not sufficient for muscle function; colocalization of the enzymes is required.’ It also ‘…requires a highly organized cellular system.’

Therefore, changes in body plan—no matter how dramatic—do not automatically prove macro-evolution. Losing structures, or misplacing their development, should not be equated with the increased information that is needed to form novel structures and cellular systems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ronshaugen, M, McGinnis, N, and McGinnis, W. Nature advance online publication, 6 February 2002 (DOI 10.1038/nature716) [RETURN TO TEXT]

Halder, G, Callaerts, P, Gehring WJ. Science 267:1788-92 1995 [RETURN TO TEXT]

Ref. 1 [RETURN TO TEXT]

Wojtas K, Slepecky N, von Kalm L, Sullivan D. Mol Biol Cell 8:1665-75 1997. [RETURN TO TEXT]

Dr David DeWitt
Creationist Biochemist and Neuroscientist
(USA)

Dr David A. DeWitt received a B.S. in biochemistry from Michigan State University and a Ph.D. in neuroscience from Case Western Reserve University. Currently an associate professor of biology at Liberty University, he is active in teaching and research. Liberty University recognized Dr DeWitt with the 2000-2001 President's Award for Teaching Excellence. He teaches upper level biology courses in cell biology and biochemistry as well as ‘History of Life.’ The latter is a required course on the creation/evolution controversy. His primary research efforts have been to understand the mechanisms causing cellular damage in Alzheimer's disease. He has authored and co-authored articles that have appeared in peer-reviewed journals such as Brain Research and Experimental Neurology.

Dr DeWitt is also associate director of the Center for Creation Studies at Liberty University and an adjunct faculty member of the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego, California where he has taught graduate level cell biology. Dr DeWitt served on the board of directors of the Alexandra Foundation and currently is their Director of Creation Education. He has written articles and given many presentations on creation/evolution issues. He is a member of the Society for Neuroscience, the Creation Research Society, and is currently chair of the biology section of the Virginia Academy of Sciences. He lives in Lynchburg, Virginia with his wife Marci and his three daughters.

Publications
The Origin of Life: A Problem for Evolution
Stem Cell Decision not the End of Ethical Dilemmas [/B]

DeWitt is not being honest with his work... Macroevolution is thought to be the result of millions of years of Microevolution, not just 'poof, there is it'. So in theory, an animal the size and proportions of a cat could drastically change and become the size of an elephant (it's descendent's) given the correct environmental pressures to change and either adapt or die out. In theory, it would also be possible that the original cat-sized animal could branch out and descend into more than one species.

Originally posted by heru
I believe in a higher power, but don't believe in the creation story. For one, there have been bones found in Africa much older than the arrival of Adam and Eve. The Cain and Abel story doesn't sit right with me either. There are four people on the planet Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel. Cain kills Abel leaving three. God puts a marking on Cain head, so that who ever should find him they will not kill him. Cain finds his wife, but where did she come from? If only three remains on the planet. These are two of many examples that I question.

I do agree with you that the Adam&Eve spawning the entire human raced is ridiculous, considering interbreeding and how people physically differ drastically from each other... But, Adam & Eve lived for hundreds of years and they had many children, so according to creationist/Bible, there was one massive incest-orgy in the beginning.