Originally posted by EjkoUSC
And the fact that Lucas cant change his mind only cause he's "the feeble creator"? The feeble creator? The feeble creator? Just think about that. What's so feeble about being the creator of the very subject we now spend so long discussing. I'd say hes an authority.
Does anyone else here see the word "feeble" in my posts?... 'cause I don't.
Originally posted by Bespin Bart
Lucas is never going to make a definitive version. The last version he makes before his death will be the definitive, only because he won't be able to tinker any more...
It's interesting how many people come on the thread, look at the title and state the obvious or the first thing that comes to their mind, and probably don't even read/understand the first or latest posts to get a good grasp of the argument.
Just like in my example of being the job applicant and having the "opportunity to show them what you offer", there was the opportunity for Lucas in '97 with his release of the SE to offer his finished and comlpete Star Wars trilogy...
...and that's what he did.
Yeah, but whenever a new version comes up, there is still another definitive version. Jabba is quite different in the SE from the 2004 DVD, so is the Han-Greedo scene. the original is so much better, I saw it again on the recently released DVD's. These changes may be small, yet they do change scenes sometimes. So what is definitive? It is the last one Lucas leaves behind when he dies?
Originally posted by queeq
So what is definitive? It is the last one Lucas leaves behind when he dies?
Just because Lucas has made changes since 1997, it doesn't change what "Star Wars: The Special Edition" essentially is, and what it was meant to be...a creation of the "final" and "definitve" version of the films.
How can it possibly be explained better?
If Star Wars: The Special Edition was never undertaken, then you could argue that the latest version would obviously be the definitve version...but now they're just NEWER versions...that's all.
And I've shown in the past 3 posts how "the last one before he dies" stuff doesn't have any bearing on anything.
...Hey, let's just hope he doesn't die after he releases a version that pisses everyone off for whatever reason...Then people will be making their own decision as to what's definitve...how does that work?
It's pretty clear that a lot of people are arguing this just because they don't like the SE (letting their feelings get in the way?). I agree with Queeq that the originals are the best, but at least I can be objective about what is what.
YES!
"He takes films that mean a lot to fans and people from the era, and turns them into experiments for revolutionary recognition"
- Cartoon Christopher Lee, Lord of the Rings by George Lucas.
Once you make the decision that something is definitve, it's contradictory and makes no sense to later say that it's not. Then you're going against your own atistic judgment and decision.
Just because Lucas has become obsessive or has developed tendencies to seek more money, recognition, or whatever, doesn't make any difference to what the SE is.
The latest version is NOT the definitve version, all it is, is what he likes the best. What's definitve is what he offered up as "final" and "complete" when he did.
What is your point then? It started evolving since the day Lucas made ANH. First without the EpI: A New Hope line in the opening crawl and different soundtrack variations. He always siad he felt limited by the technology at the time, then when Jurassic Park came out he saw a chance to bring it closer to his original vision and he made the SE, then as stuff developed, technology got better, he altered it again and he will keep doing that no doubt. So what IS definitive?
Lucas always quoted this line which he seems to hold unto in a somewhat forced way: films are not finished, only abandoned. Looks like he doesn't want to abdandon the OT and keeps updating it. Well fine... whatever. Still doesn't change the fact that the original OT changed history, movie history in particular and that the original ANH made it possible for him to create his empire, the PT, the SE and all other alterations.
Nothing is definitive for Lucas, it is always abandoned until it is perfect. And when that happens, THAT is the definitive version. Or when he dies, the last one is because that will be the one closest to his vision.
I could see him saying the "films are not finished, only abandoned" stuff after he made the originals...that makes sense. That's cause (especially in " A New Hope"😉 he'd fall ridculously behind schedule and have a limited budget/technology.
However, when SE came around, all of that was there for him to do what he'd wish...THAT'S why he did what he did.
I'm just relaying what was said in the Making of Star Wars: Special Edition, and showing what (in his words) the very purpose of the SE was.
It seems that he has since changed his mind on what HE considers a "finished" and "complete" Star Wars looks like, but my argument is that this doesn't take anything away from the SE claiming the right as being the finished version of Star Wars...because in his own words, that's what it was meant to be.
All I gotta say is...
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well...I think it's the version he says is definitve the frist time he states it...the fact that he's decided to change his mind about what should constitute a definitve verion of the films is irrelevant.He very capably made a decision in '97...therefore every release after that is just a re-edit of what has now been named the "final" and "complete" version (SE) of the Star Wars trilogy.
The SE is the first version of the trilogy that can claim to be "complete" and "finished"...nothing can take that away from it...not even its fickle creator.
My point is, to go back on something you say is definitve, is contradictory...otherwise why say something is the complete version of the films when you don't mean it?
I'm sure to Lucas, the latest versions of his films are what he prefers, but the decision he so capably made and the label he gave to his SE trilogy in 97 will forever stand.
&
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I can compare it to giving in a resume for a one time only posistion...You take your time, work on an a resume, and make the decision to hand it in. This is your opportunity to show them what you offer.
The company looks at you resume, but the decision to hire you doesn't fall in your favour.
You tell them:
"Actually, that's not my final version of my resume...THIS is."
Their reaction's gonna be:
"What?? This is what you handed in. You very capably made your resume for this job, and made the decision to hand it in...of course it's your final version...why should we believe what you're adding, now that you know our decision???
Our reaction to it, or anything else shouldn't change what your resume is.
If you had something to add (or take out) that was so important, you would have done it.
THIS is what you put forward as a representation of yourself and your skills...changing your mind now is just silly...I'm sure according to you, the new version of your resume is better, but you already gave us your complete resume...and that's what I'll consider to be the complete representation of youreslf and your skills"
......as is the SE a "final" and "complete" (in Lucas' words) representation of what he wanted his Star Wars Trilogy to be.
...it's all there...nothing more to explain.
Why stressing what the definitive version is? He's been making that for 30 years. Who knows if he ever finishes it, I doubt he is completely satified with ANH... that's the only film that has a few moments of outdatedness, although he did take out all the English words from the equipment.
BTW, that female stormtrooper... why isn't she in the SE if that is so definitive as you say? 😉
Originally posted by queeq
Who knows if he ever finishes it, I doubt he is completely satified with ANH... that's the only film that has a few moments of outdatedness, although he did take out all the English words from the equipment.
All I gotta say is...
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
The ideal version of TPM is the one that's out now. There was nothing stopping them from making exactly the film they wanted to make. Even if a digital Yoda wouldn't look perfect (Jar-Jar and Sebulba were pretty darn impressive), they could have had it in there....Similarly, there's was nothing stopping them from adding more to the SE (which was a needed fix for the tehnological inadequacies of the OOT)...Me saying they could've added Naboo is just an extreme example...A perfect example is something like changing the English lettering on the tractor beam to the space font...that's just stupid.
&
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
As far as continuity goes, George attempted to make continuity in 97 because he had the foresight to include Coruscant in the SE films (knowing he would have it in the PT). Now, he's changing his mind on his continuity efforst as well! If he really wanted to have Naboo in his original vision he could have added Naboo. We hadn't seen Coruscant before...nor had we seen Naboo...so it's not a matter of not being ready or something like that. It's a conscious decision he made. Now going back on the decision (like he did in 04) does NOT make it definitve..it makes it tinkering. THAT's my point.
Once again...it's all there...nothing more to explain.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Yeah...you think I prefer the SE...oh, 'cause you haven't read my posts I'm guessin'...Well...the originals are the best, but they're the least definitve by far.
i have read your posts, and i didnt mean to say what ones you prefer at all, at least thats not how i meant to come accross...
definitive is something that can only be truly decided by lucas though (imo), and who's to say he won't re-edit the ot again AND the pt and then say that those are his definitive versions...
He will...and nothing is gonna convince me that TPM with a digital Yoda is definitve...who cares what he thinks...he made it with a puppet Yoda when he could've had a digital Yoda...for whatever reasons (good or bad).
We already have the definitve versions of all the films...they're the versions he made when he had the essential technology, time and money to work with...and he had that in '97 with the OT, and in '99, '02, and '05 with the PT...going back and making changes to voices, holograms, words and crap like that doesn't make them any more definitve...it's just anal retentive tinkering to what he had the resources to accomplish initially.
...and as much as I despise the 20th anniversary of ET, I accept it as the definitve version because for the first time, the creator went back and did what he wasn't able to do with is character in the 80s...and that's perfectly acceptable...and this is now the definitve version of ET (ugh!)
Lucas had been able to do everything with every movie...from an artistice perspective, that's where the line is drawn. THAT'S my argument...who cares what Lucas thinks...he's a bit "off."