Yes, but Dooku is arguably still a smarter person than Vader. And there is no proof that Dooku's Dun Moch ability will not have effect on OT Vader. Also, neither of them are really "military tacticians". I mean, they are not terrible at it but they both have people making the important decisions for them. I f I recall, Vader made the decision to send his fleet into an asteroind field just to catch the Falcon, thus suffering heavy damage. This could be seen as Vader sacrificing his Queen just to capture a pawn. Dooku will win this match fairly easily imo.
That's only because you're a fanboy. In the OT Vader was smarter than Dooku, who didn't see through Sidious(I mean come on, how can you be that stupid, like a Sith Lord will share power with someone else, one that's Older than him, and doesn't have any potential) Dooku isn't that smart, and it wouldn't be sacrificing his Queen for a Pawn, it'd be Queen for a King, you do realise he thought Luke was on the Falcon. Anakin of the PT was Pathetic, and a whiny *****, he would lose this easily, not OT Vader
Well I disagree. Name something that would put OT Vader on the level of Dooku in terms of knowledge, patience and discipline. OT Vader is smart, a heck of alot smarter than PT Anakin, but he is more of a brute force, do what I say or ill kick you ass apprentice. Dooku simply has more experience and knowledge for this match. The Count will win.
Lmao. Im not going and watching the OT again. Dooku is smarter for the reasons I stated before. He is also older and would have more experience (assuming all these contestants play chess). Dooku has probably had top of the range private lessons, just to give him that edge over the opponent. There would be no expense spared to make him the best. Vader however has been too busy having his arms removed, his legs removed, attempting to destroy an ever evasive alliance and trying to track down his son.
Rampant Ox, Count Dooku was a politician and a politician only. He, like Emperor Palpatine, left the tactical battles and conquests to the people who could handle it.
Vader was the supreme Executor of the Galactic Empire. He showed extreme tactical ability even during the PT, but lost his temper too easily. In the OT, he calmed down.
Vader > Dooku in tactics. Get over it.
In tactics yes, Vader might have the edge over the Count. Dooku was not stupid, and he didnt specialise in tactics but this doesnt mean he wouldnt come up with some good strategies of his own. Also, Dooku has the chess playing personality. I could imagine him sitting on a balcony, playing chess with high ranking politicians while sipping a Martinni. However I can not imagine Vader playing. He might have the odd game in his meditation chamber with Admiral Piett but thats about all.
But all this doesnt mean Vader is smarter in general and it certainly doesnt mean he will win the match. Dooku is far more patient, calm and (imo) disciplined. These are three crucial factors in a game of chess.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
In tactics yes, Vader might have the edge over the Count. Dooku was not stupid, and he didnt specialise in tactics but this doesnt mean he wouldnt come up with some good strategies of his own. Also, Dooku has the chess playing personality. I could imagine him sitting on a balcony, playing chess with high ranking politicians while sipping a Martinni. However I can not imagine Vader playing. He might have the odd game in his meditation chamber with Admiral Piett but thats about all.But all this doesnt mean Vader is smarter in general and it certainly doesnt mean he will win the match. Dooku is far more patient, calm and (imo) disciplined. These are three crucial factors in a game of chess.
Actually he's right, Dooku would probably play it while his Midget Butler gives him Martinni's while Dooku reclined on a Beach. Vader is the more Diciplined/Patient sith, but might not know Chess, I was thinking Tactics instead XD
Originally posted by Rampant ox
In tactics yes, Vader might have the edge over the Count.
This is where you're ridiculous fanboyism comes in, whether it be a game of chess, a battle, or a god damn 72 Mile Marathon - Dooku just cannot come short by your standards. Really. Not to one thing. It's always "Dooku might have a chance actually", or "x might be better than Dooku". It's pretty ridiculous.
In any case, what you're saying is that an experienced tactician, who has been working for the Empire for twenty years, oversaw numerous battles, won numerous battles, and such just might come up short to "The Great" Dooku, a man who is a politician with no real history of being an excellent strategist. That is ridiculous. If you want to claim that Dooku is even in the same league as Vader? That's laughable.
Why you ask? Let us take just a short overview of Vader's credentials:
- The defeat of Zaarin's assassination squad that were trying to capture the Emporer. Granted Zaarin escaped, however, he did destroy his commanding fighting support.
- The Battle of Tatooine against the Tantive Five.
- The Battle of Hoth, where he personally took over for Veers after the shield generators were down, and slaughtered the remaining rebels.
- As Anakin, he did help very much in The Battle of Praesitlyn taking out the opposition's flagship bridge on his own. He also acted as a commander.
- Taking out Xizor because of a failed attempt at a bluff, thus destroying Xizor's skyhook.
- The destruction of Admiral Harkov's fleet, which was impressive.
- He set up a sting operation on Zekka Thyne, who Vader did consider a "formidable rival". He had Thrawn dress up as Jodo Kast. So, we do know that his "choice" of tactics is similiar to Thrawn's in that it's an alternative method.
Now that's just some of his victories, there's a numerous amount more as noted in TIE: Fighter. Dooku's history with commanding a fleet? Um, none? Nothing nearly as impressive. Vader is simply a good tactician, has twenty plus years of service to the Empire (in terms of commanding, Executor, etc.), and is definitely above Dooku.
Dooku was not stupid, and he didnt specialise in tactics but this doesnt mean he wouldnt come up with some good strategies of his own.
You're assuming that Dooku is smarter than Darth Vader. Well, I do say, old chap - proof? Just because he seems like one of those "oh, rubbish, dear, I do say old chap - have we a spot of tea?" guys doesn't mean he is more intelligent than Vader. Even so - even if he is slightly more intelligent (because he's not leagues above him in intelligence if he were to be smarter) Vader is far more experienced and far more knowledgeable in tactics, strategy, and the like than Dooku. We know Vader is very intelligent as well through his works with in technology, and even his advice to the Empire. Vader wanted to improve TIE fighter, and Stormtrooper armor, as he commissioned it. He also was said to have ties to the Dark trooper project. Darth Vader is the Lord of Technology. It's part of his character.
Now, what strategies can someone with no strategic and tactical background come up with to fool someone who has twenty years experience, is a highly decorated Executor, and practically second in command of the Galactic Empire?
Really - there is no comparison.
Also, Dooku has the chess playing personality. I could imagine him sitting on a balcony, playing chess with high ranking politicians while sipping a Martinni. However I can not imagine Vader playing. He might have the odd game in his meditation chamber with Admiral Piett but thats about all.
This right here, is your entire argument, I'd say. Dooku looks like a smart guy, who plays chess all the time. Basically one of those snobby Englishman, or whatever. Like the Monopoly Guy. Vader looks like he was put together using various collectibles of scrap metal, and then painted black, and had a PC installed in his chest. So, therefore [by your logic] Dooku just might be able to pull off a win based on that? Ridiculous, as I've said already.
If I were in the Star Wars universe, during the time of TPM - I would never suspect Palpatine of being a Sith Lord. He doesn't even look like one. But regarding this specific conversation, if I looked at Vader, and just watched the first hour of A New Hope, I'd say he's just a brute enforcer who lacks intelligence, and thus leaves it up to the others to do the real job.
As we find out, this is completely, 100% incorrect. He's very intelligent with technology, and has pulled through numerous battles with the win. His demeanor comes off that way because he's kind of like "Do what I tell you, don't mess up a thing, and hold up your end, I'll hold up mine". We notice he does not execute officers who aren't directly responsible.
But all this doesnt mean Vader is smarter in general and it certainly doesnt mean he will win the match. Dooku is far more patient, calm and (imo) disciplined. These are three crucial factors in a game of chess.
Um, Vader will win. Vader has demonstrated patience when he wants to, and as for disciplined? In what way exactly? Been a utterly devoted servant to the Emporer's every whim for twenty years. As I said above, kills those who fail him, but not those who aren't directly responsible.
And honestly, do you think General Veers would admire him so much if he wasn't good? The only ones that hold a grudge against him have reasons (Mara, Thrawn, etc.). His troops do hold a strong amount of respect for him as he does personally lead campaigns.
Vader is the superior tactician. And my money is definitely on Vader for the win.
I do feel that I should address my above decision because I put Dooku as a guess (then again, I put a lot of guesses) and so you don't go saying "You said Dooku would win, yada": I wasn't really sure if Count Dooku had any background when I actually made my decisions above, so I decided to check up on it. Apparently, he doesn't. I always thought Dooku was like the Seperatists' strategist or something (which, in my book, means he'd be damn good) - as I didn't care enough about his character to actually look, but now I do, because I love to disprove your "rampant ramblings".
That plus I did a lot of research on Vader's tactical background, lol.
So are you saying that Vader, the man who would crush the pieces in his hands and cry oil when he loses would beat the Count, who plays chess against the Chancellor every second Sunday over tea and scones. BULLSHIT!!!
Leading fleets and moving chess pieces are two different things. If I said before that Dooku is a better tactician I take that back now. I have read little EU and didnt know of Vaders achievements. But in most of the cases you stated I am assuming that Vader had a vast majority in terms of troops, training the troops have had and the element of suprise. None of these are available in chess. You have to rely on yourself to do all the work, the chess pieces are not going to miraculously come to life and perform wonderous feets.
This is where Dooku has the advantage and Vader the disadvantage. Vader fights with legions of stormtroopers behind him, usually the 501st. If he did make a mistake, which im not saying he does, but if he did he would have a member of his army to fix it. Or he might not even make the decision in the first place, merely tell someone else to. If he made a mistake in chess, to put it simply, he is screwed. Dooku however is a one man show. He single handedly convinced the systems to leave the Republic etc etc. He did not have an army to back him up (until the CIS was formed).
Also this is one time where age may help the Count. We are assuming that all the contestants actually play chess. So it would be logical to assume that Dooku has played the game longer because he is older (and Yoda again would be more skilled bacause he is far older). With age comes experience. Dooku will know the game better and know better strategies. Vader might be good, but he wouldnt have had the same experience of the game as Dooku had. Thus giving Dooku a considerable advantage. I stick with what I said before and say Dooku wins.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
So are you saying that Vader, the man who would crush the pieces in his hands and cry oil when he loses would beat the Count, who plays chess against the Chancellor every second Sunday over tea and scones. BULLSHIT!!!
No, what I am saying is that you're a fanboy, capisce? Obviously the other twenty? Twenty one? (I've lost count, so excuse me) times I've handed you your ass in a debate haven't taught you much. I have failed you, Rampant, I have failed you.
I could be the greatest teacher in the world, but some students just cannot be taught.
Leading fleets and moving chess pieces are two different things.
Oh, really? I wasn't aware giving commands is very different from actually doing them yourself. His subordinates listen to his word, and relay the message to the battlefield. In a battle, the commander gives the word to do x and y. The troops obey commands. Darth Vader, if anything, only delegates because delegating authority generates a smooth military machine. Vader picking up chess pieces is a far step behind relying on other people to do the job. In chess, Vader can do as he pleases, and make sure there are no failures - for example, "Position the fleet so that nothing gets out of the system. Recall that line? Recall who was given the command? Admiral Piett was given that command, and he failed.
If Vader has full command, and doesn't need to relay messages it's going to be a lot easier, and make his "battle" a lot smoother.
If I said before that Dooku is a better tactician I take that back now. I have read little EU and didn't know of Vaders achievements.
Good, because Dooku isn't even in the same apartment complex as Vader in terms of tactical ability, and strategically planning (which is what chess is about). Vader is in the Penthouse suite of the Waldorf Astoria, while Dooku is living in a rundown building, room 1F. And there's no running water either.
And that's not sarcasm or an attempt at being funny, it's how it is.
But in most of the cases you stated I am assuming that Vader had a vast majority in terms of troops, training the troops have had and the element of surprise.
Incorrect. How, pray tell, was the victory at the Battle of Praesitlyn due to "more troops, training, and surprise" when they were losing prior? And if you recall, this was Anakin Skywalker, he took the opposition's bridge out by himself. Tactical ability? Oh, I do say so. And chess is a planned out game. If you know what you're going to do, it can be a surprise.
None of these are available in chess. You have to rely on yourself to do all the work, the chess pieces are not going to miraculously come to life and perform wonderous feets.
Obviously they are not going to perform "feets", as that's an ugly misspelling of "feats". The thing that's entirely flown over your most likely bald head is that Vader was in command, he gave orders. That's the equivalent to chess where the player moves the pieces around. He relays the commands, and whatever officer follows them. That is, when Vader isn't leading into battle. In other words, commanding troops personally in which he doesn't even have to waste air. The Battle of Hoth was won by Vader's ground assistance, as he did take over after Veers destroyed the shield generators.
That's what you do as a commander - you basically tell what to do, and they do it. That's no different from chess as you move where you want to. Vader probably excels at small unit tactics rather than full scale battle, as we know - the corresponding pieces to your color are considered "small unit", in that it's not a huge burden to command.
This is where Dooku has the advantage and Vader the disadvantage. Vader fights with legions of stormtroopers behind him, usually the 501st.
Who are under his command. He gives the orders. We know Darth Vader personally likes to lead as many campaigns as possible. I don't see what you're getting at. You are truly not making sense. Look at it this way, Vader is commanding the black "ships", Dooku controlling the white "ships". They have equal artillery, and such - however, the black commander, Vader, is an experienced tactician, and has won many battles before. Now, tell me how would Dooku beat that when he has no tactical background?
If he did make a mistake, which im not saying he does, but if he did he would have a member of his army to fix it.
Like what exactly? Care to give an example? A mistake in what way? Strategically? No. In terms of equipment? Well, obviously, but that's only if the fleet gets shot to shit. Really though, I'd like to know what you even mean.
Or he might not even make the decision in the first place, merely tell someone else to.
Firstly, I'm going to address your original point: that essentially makes no sense. How can he "not make the decision", but tell someone else to? If he tells someone else to do it, he made the decision. Though, I will say were you to pass the buck to your second in command, you would be superseded. Lord Vader is not under those conditions - he is the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces, not a common flag officer. Fleet deployment is something that a common line captain does. It's standard procedure, entrapment.
I'd like to call into question of what you think chess is. Giving a command is practically the same as moving a piece. Except in this game, Vader only has himself, which is more than suitable. Why? Because he doesn't have to worry about some incompetent screwing up his plans. Do you think an actual battle has no correlation to a game of chess? If you do, then - as I've said - you are horribly misinformed.
If he made a mistake in chess, to put it simply, he is screwed.
And you somehow believe that tactics, and strategy don't tie into chess? Uh, the board is the battlefield. The pawns are the troopers. The knights are star ships, and so on. Do you honestly believe Vader cannot calculate that? Your premise is that chess has nothing to do with tactics. That is very wrong. Dooku is more susceptible to make a mistake than Vader, because Vader not only has chess experience, but actual battle and military experience as well. We know that in one case, Vader won a battle even with fighting through impossible odds (Vengeance Campaign, IIRC), and he prefers "out of the ordinary" or "alternative tactics". You cannot expect Dooku to even know what the hell Vader is planning, whereas with Vader - it's more than likely he'd catch an eye on what Dooku's up to. Having seen an innumerable amount of battles as not only Darth Vader, but Anakin Skywalker as well. To think he wouldn't at least grasp what his opponent was doing is ridiculous, honestly.
Dooku however is a one man show. He single handedly convinced the systems to leave the Republic etc etc. He did not have an army to back him up (until the CIS was formed).
And that correlates to chess how? Because he can somehow talk someone into something he is automatically a chess god? This is purely ridiculous. You have no idea of what you're arguing. Tactics, and actual battle have far more to do with chess than being a political figure. Which, not surprisingly, has nothing to do with chess. A tactician can understand the game of chess better than a politician. This is obvious.
What you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong here, is that Dooku is going to be good at chess because he "singlehandedly" talked some people into leaving? This logic does not follow. A political figures job really has nothing to do with chess, a tacticians job, however, does. I say that because chess is what strategists and tacticians do. They command a unit. The pieces are their unit. They give the orders by moving them, and obviously the inanimate objects follow. The only major differences are:
1.) You have equal "artillery" in terms of each color piece corresponding to it's counterpart's ability to move.
2.) You have an equal amount of troops.
Now, because of that we must rely on the commanders, which would be Dooku and Vader respectively, to deploy their pieces (troops) onto the board (battlefield). We can successfully gauge who will win based on tactical experience, because we do not know how good Dooku would've gotten playing chess. You cannot prove that Dooku would be a better general chess player, assuming neither had any military/tactical background, just because he's older.
For example, take Sergey Karjakin, he was only twelve years old when he was deemed a grandmaster. I'd be willing to bet he can beat older folks who had been playing chess for decades. I know he could. So, obviously age does not equal skill. In universe example: Dooku vs. Anakin.
Back to the actual point, since we would would not know who's a better general chess player without tactical background (and don't think I can't make a case for Vader), we should turn to their tactical background. In which case Dooku is plainly outclassed.
Also this is one time where age may help the Count. We are assuming that all the contestants actually play chess. So it would be logical to assume that Dooku has played the game longer because he is older (and Yoda again would be more skilled bacause he is far older). With age comes experience. Dooku will know the game better and know better strategies.[/b]
This is faulty logic. If you do operate under the assumption that all competitors have played chess, it would still be an added plus for Vader. We know he's able to throw together brilliant strategies, and if he's experienced with chess that's even more of a plus. Now "age comes experience" - this may be true, however, we know that young adults (no more than 13, 14) are able to best people who have had decades of experience playing chess. So, your point virtually collapses. As well, just because he's played longer does not mean he'd have better strategies.
Realistically, you're assuming a chess player - who's played longer, can beat another chess player, who may have had less time to play, but is a brilliant strategist. This is equivalent to saying that Dooku should be better than Anakin because he's had about 40-50 plus years to train with a lightsaber, and become experienced. As we find out in ROTS:
This is not the case, hence your "grand" argument fails. You see how that works? It's called "logic", and it's a key part to any argument - this is why your arguments fail you. The example above perfectly corresponds. Dooku, by your faulty logic, should be better - he is not, however because of one key essential skill: saber skill. In chess, the key essential skills are: strategy and tactics. Surprise, Surprise. Something our Lord Vader has been practicing for more than twenty years.
For a better example, please see my above point (see: Sergey Karjakin).
Vader might be good, but he wouldnt have had the same experience of the game as Dooku had. Thus giving Dooku a considerable advantage.
Oh yeah, it did save him from getting his head chopped off by Ana-- oh wait, it didn't. Experience doesn't grant you a victory, nor can it give judgement on a decision that has more factors than just say, random padawan versus random fifty year old master. We know that Vader is a highly gifted tactician, whereas Dooku plainly is not. We know Vader's won numerous victories, and such. That is a considerable advantage. Your fanboyism is not.
And again, just because Dooku's had experience does not mean he'll be any better than Vader. Simple experience does not correlate to skill nor ability. Certainly not in chess. You'd have to prove the impossible, which is Dooku's faced opponents on Vader's level of ability, and won or came close to. This you cannot do, thus your point holds no water.
I stick with what I said before and say Dooku wins.
Yes, but you are a fanboy, and no one cares what you say. So, it doesn't really matter, now does it? And you've yet to provide any real proof that Dooku is capable of beating him. Honestly, you've just been sprouting out a false premise, and trying to think I'd let it slide, and trying to pass it off as if you actually made an argument. Reading your entire thing, we can gauge that you don't have anything to base your decision on aside from "he looks like a chess player, and he's going to be more experienced", which both are very easily defeated.
Vader beats Dooku. No Dooku fanboys can stop that from happening. Unfortunately you've neglected to answer my post at all - where I call to question your lack of evidence or justification for anything. If you plan on responding, please do not keep flinging shit around like a monkey.
In a random draw, the following matches have been decided for Round 1
Match 1-
Revan vs. Demetrius Zaarin (2-1 says it's Revan)
Match 2-
Winner: Zsinj
Match 3-
Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader (in progress, though Vader is nearing checkmate)
Match 4-
Winner: Ackbar
Match 5-
Winner: Grievous
Match 6-
Winner: Sidious
Match 7-
NEW MATCH: I eliminated Thrawn and Keermak since one's really good and another is not that great.
So Match 7 is between Yoda vs. Traya
Match 8-
Winner: Sev'rance Tann
Round 2 Participants (so far):
Sev'rance Tann
Zsinj
Sidious
Grievous
Ackbar