Re: "Salvation is based off of faith."
Originally posted by FeceMan
"Judgment is based off of works."I heard that tonight.
So, tell me: what would you rather have?
Either salvation or judgement, whatever the concept, should be decided on works. They should be decided on action and intent.
It has always been a big claim from certain Christians that there religion is special as "salvation" is freely given without no demand or expectation of earning it. That God just forgives and you don't have to earn that forgiveness. Inevitably that leads to the "so the mass murderer can pray five minutes before death and get saved while a good hard working nonbeliever will be sent to hell." And that is dodgy as hell.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Either salvation or judgement, whatever the concept, should be decided on works. They should be decided on action and intent.It has always been a big claim from certain Christians that there religion is special as "salvation" is freely given without no demand or expectation of earning it. That God just forgives and you don't have to earn that forgiveness. Inevitably that leads to the "so the mass murderer can pray five minutes before death and get saved while a good hard working nonbeliever will be sent to hell." And that is dodgy as hell.
Originally posted by FeceMan
I don't see why salvation should be based off of works. Salvation means you are saved, rescued. Only judgment implies scrutiny of one's life.
Yes, but saved from what? My religion believes that salvation is the saving of man from the clutches of Satan, that without Christ's sacrifice all men would be doomed to hell in torment with Satan, being damned. The Bible states that even the saved will stand before the judgement seat, why do we stand there if there is no judgement? I believe in salvation, don't get me wrong, but there is still judgement.
Originally posted by Regret
that without Christ's sacrifice all men would be doomed to hell in torment with Satan, being damned.
Does this mean that all Jews were "unsaved" even before Christ?
Becuase it seems unfair if you are "the people of god" is you are dammed, just because your god hasn't gotten of his lazy @ss and sent down himself/his son yet...despite the fact that you do everythign he said.
Re: "Salvation is based off of faith."
Originally posted by FeceMan
"Judgment is based off of works."I heard that tonight.
So, tell me: what would you rather have?
A bowl of ice cream.
There is nothing to be saved from.
There is no judgment day other then today.
Each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
There is no forgiveness beyond that which is in the heart.
You are the only one watching over your shoulder.
You are not a sinful creature, you just have a lot to work on.
Re: Re: "Salvation is based off of faith."
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A bowl of ice cream.There is nothing to be saved from.
There is no judgment day other then today.
Each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
There is no forgiveness beyond that which is in the heart.
You are the only one watching over your shoulder.
You are not a sinful creature, you just have a lot to work on.
All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?
Re: Re: Re: "Salvation is based off of faith."
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
All lies. How come you never provide any substantiation for your empty statements?
My statements are fine. I could quote from the Lotus sutra, but you wouldn't understand.
Two problems with your statement; you have over generalized when you say I never give proof and you wrongly characterize my statements as empty.
You never provide proof, and the bible, just like the Lotus sutra, is not proof. Proof is a waste of time, when you are talking about things that cannot be proven. Empty statement is only how you see what I wrote. What is more likely to be the truth, a newborn baby is condemned to hell, or that hell is just a scare tactic?
Originally posted by Alliance
Does this mean that all Jews were "unsaved" even before Christ?Becuase it seems unfair if you are "the people of god" is you are dammed, just because your god hasn't gotten of his lazy @ss and sent down himself/his son yet...despite the fact that you do everythign he said.
Nah, everyone is saved. The only thing left is what part of heaven you go to after judgement.
Re: Re: "Salvation is based off of faith."
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
A bowl of ice cream.There is nothing to be saved from.
There is no judgment day other then today.
Each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
There is no forgiveness beyond that which is in the heart.
You are the only one watching over your shoulder.
You are not a sinful creature, you just have a lot to work on.
Actually the only accurate statement is that each of us is responsible for the good and evil we do.
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, but saved from what? My religion believes that salvation is the saving of man from the clutches of Satan, that without Christ's sacrifice all men would be doomed to hell in torment with Satan, being damned. The Bible states that even the saved will stand before the judgement seat, why do we stand there if there is no judgement? I believe in salvation, don't get me wrong, but there is still judgement.
Originally posted by FeceMan
We'll stand before God and be judged off of what we did in our lives, this is true. However, those who are saved will not have to suffer the second death, and they shall be rewarded for their good works.
And so judgement does occur. Salvation only mediates some of the penalty.
Originally posted by Regret
Nah, everyone is saved. The only thing left is what part of heaven you go to after judgement.
It is a concept that interests me, and I might be wrong with my terminology, so forgive me. I asked a Mormon about what happens with the people who died before Christ offered the avenue to "salvation" - and I was told they aren't damned (due to the tri-level nature of the afterlife in the Mormon view.)
Also that there is a process (Covenant) where the Mormon church can "bring over" a person who died without knowledge of the Church (seeing as how the Mormon faith is relatively young) so they can gain "salvation." It was a long while ago, so I am vague on it, am I anywhere near the ballpark here?
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It is a concept that interests me, and I might be wrong with my terminology, so forgive me. I asked a Mormon about what happens with the people who died before Christ offered the avenue to "salvation" - and I was told they aren't damned (due to the tri-level nature of the afterlife in the Mormon view.)Also that there is a process (Covenant) where the Mormon church can "bring over" a person who died without knowledge of the Church (seeing as how the Mormon faith is relatively young) so they can gain "salvation." It was a long while ago, so I am vague on it, am I anywhere near the ballpark here?
Mormons believe that salvation has been offered since Adam fell. We believe that to save men from the spiritual death caused by the fall (separation from God) Christ would sacrifice himself. Given this, blood sacrifices were used to remind men of the sacrifice God would make to save us from our sins, so repentance was present prior to Christ's atonement. Following Christ's Atonement the sacrament was instituted as a reminder of the sacrifice that God made to save us from our sins.
We believe that Christ's breaking the bounds of purgatory, allows those who accept his sacrifice to repent and enter paradise after death. We believe that baptism and various other religious ordinances can performed for those that are dead, and then if that person accepts those ordinances (no one is forced to accept vicarious ordinances, they can choose to accept them or they are invalid) that person enjoys the benefits of having performed those ordinances themselves. Thus, all mankind will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel and all its benefits. The only catch is that if one rejects the Gospel here in this life, this possibility is either very difficult or impossible to accept there. We believe that people do not have a full understanding of the nature of existence until judgement, so they must still choose to accept it without full knowledge. So proselyting occurs in purgatory.
If this wasn't clear or not what you were asking let me know.
Originally posted by Regret
Mormons believe that salvation has been offered since Adam fell. We believe that to save men from the spiritual death caused by the fall (separation from God) Christ would sacrifice himself. Given this, blood sacrifices were used to remind men of the sacrifice God would make to save us from our sins, so repentance was present prior to Christ's atonement. Following Christ's Atonement the sacrament was instituted as a reminder of the sacrifice that God made to save us from our sins.We believe that Christ's breaking the bounds of purgatory, allows those who accept his sacrifice to repent and enter paradise after death. We believe that baptism and various other religious ordinances can performed for those that are dead, and then if that person accepts those ordinances (no one is forced to accept vicarious ordinances, they can choose to accept them or they are invalid) that person enjoys the benefits of having performed those ordinances themselves. Thus, all mankind will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel and all its benefits. The only catch is that if one rejects the Gospel here in this life, this possibility is either very difficult or impossible to accept there. We believe that people do not have a full understanding of the nature of existence until judgement, so they must still choose to accept it without full knowledge. So proselyting occurs in purgatory.
If this wasn't clear or not what you were asking let me know.
Yes, the cleared it up perfectly. You could be a missionary, it was a lot clearer then what a remember being told a few years ago.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Yes, the cleared it up perfectly. You could be a missionary, it was a lot clearer then what a remember being told a few years ago.
I think many Mormons just don't understand how to explain the concept to someone who is unfamiliar with our beliefs. I actually never did the missionary thing. I often wish I had, but regrets are really only worth while if you get over them and don't make the same mistake twice 😉