Immigration

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm not small minded just realistic, I wouldn't mind if they all came here if this country could handle it. It can't. So yeah they are secondary to the people already living here, its the responsibility of this country to take care of its own citizens first, everybody that comes here legally should be helped in the exact same way, and everybody in the world should have a chance to enter this country. But there have to be limits its as simple as that.

You are being very simplistic. More people actually means that more money will be generated. People are actually pretty inventive, so new jobs would be created as a result of all the new immigrants. Just look at all the new Polish delis in the major cities.

Originally posted by Fishy
And that I think the peolpe in this country are more important to this country then the people outside of the country is only logical... It would be stupid for any country to spend more on other country's then on their own...

Again, you're missing the point. If the immigrants are in the country, then they should have the same rights as the other people...in the country.

If it were not for this country's (fairly) enlightened policy on immigration we would have: fewer nurses, fewer doctors, very few NHS dentists, fewer builders, mechanics, soldiers, and so on, and so on... also remember that lots of "Brits" leave this country every year, to run away to the richer countries of the USA, Australia, and South Africa.... plenty go to live in Spain, France and Greece.... maybe they should get rid of all immigrants too.... then we really would be in a mess.... in fact, had we banned immigration in the forties and fifties, we would quite literally be in a mess, as there would have been no one here to buoy up the public transport system or the waste disposal.... we need immigrants.... all countries do, unless they wish to stagnate and die....

Originally posted by big gay kirk
If it were not for this country's (fairly) enlightened policy on immigration we would have: fewer nurses, fewer doctors, very few NHS dentists, fewer builders, mechanics, soldiers, and so on, and so on... also remember that lots of "Brits" leave this country every year, to run away to the richer countries of the USA, Australia, and South Africa.... plenty go to live in Spain, France and Greece.... maybe they should get rid of all immigrants too.... then we really would be in a mess.... in fact, had we banned immigration in the forties and fifties, we would quite literally be in a mess, as there would have been no one here to buoy up the public transport system or the waste disposal.... we need immigrants.... all countries do, unless they wish to stagnate and die....

👆

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
You are being very simplistic. More people actually means that more money will be generated. People are actually pretty inventive, so new jobs would be created as a result of all the new immigrants. Just look at all the new Polish delis in the major cities.

And look at all of those that don't have a job... Those that don't work, can't because of god knows what reason or those that simply refuse to work because they can get money anyway. Yes I know this is a minority and that the natives of every country do it as well, but every immigrant that does this is one that could have been prevented from entering. Then there is the often very large difference in education levels. At my work I a 19 year old student have to boss around a 45 year old Iraqi who has lived here for 8 years and has finished university where he comes from. His Dutch although understandable is far from good and the work he does does not match what somebody from a university should be able to do or should do.

How many immigrants do you think can get jobs like that? Because they will need to learn Dutch and probably reeducate themselves on a lot of things before they can work here. That will take years and a lot of money from both sides. We need immigrants for a lot of the work like that big gay guy named Kirk said, but we need immigrants with experience in certain fields with the required language skills and an education. And the fact is the majority of the people that come here don't have that (yet). Making them cost us a lot of money to get them on the same level and because they are usually less educated don't have jobs or worse jobs and make less money they have fewer chances and a bigger chance to get into a welfare program or for their children to enter crime...

That's a big problem with immigrants they are often poor compared to the people already living here. That plus an obvious cultural difference makes it very hard for many of them to get a job and to get a good life, to change that will cost millions and we simply do not have the money to educate everybody give them all jobs and good lives, we or any other country in the world for that matter simply can't pull that off.

Again, you're missing the point. If the immigrants are in the country, then they should have the same rights as the other people...in the country.

I actually completely agree with this, I'm just saying we shouldn't let everybody enter this country because that will just end up hurting the economy. It's sad but you have to be selective when you choose who to let into the country or not, there simply isn't any other way. This isn't a perfect world.

And if they don't really need the language skills what's the problem?

Cultural differences...

Can you raise your children to learn Dutch, to speak Dutch and to get all the same chances Dutch people have when they are raised in a home where they speak another language, where the culture is different... They will have different lives, now this doesn't always turn out bad but sometimes it does and it almost always makes people feel different from the rest and makes it harder to be accepted, thus again making it more difficult to actually have a good life here.

The culture of the country you move too is the dominant one, you should always adopt to it, and learning to speak the language is one of the most important things. People refusing to do that only make things worse for themselves and all other immigrants. Who are after all judged by the actions of other immigrants as well.

Originally posted by Fishy
And look at all of those that don't have a job... Those that don't work, can't because of god knows what reason or those that simply refuse to work because they can get money anyway. Yes I know this is a minority and that the natives of every country do it as well, but every immigrant that does this is one that could have been prevented from entering.

Regardless of this ^ being quite a ridiculous statement, following your rationale all the people in the country who are doing this should be kicked out. Life doesn't work like that. If a person chooses to live in a country with a supportive welfare state, is unemployed, and thus claim benefits, then they are not doing anything lawfully wrong.

Originally posted by Fishy
Then there is the often very large difference in education levels. At my work I a 19 year old student have to boss around a 45 year old Iraqi who has lived here for 8 years and has finished university where he comes from. His Dutch although understandable is far from good and the work he does does not match what somebody from a university should be able to do or should do.

I'm guessing the place you work begins with a 'Mc'? What other kind of workplace is going to have a student 'boss'? Anyway, all of this part of your post doesn't have much resonance in the discussion.

Originally posted by Fishy
How many immigrants do you think can get jobs like that? Because they will need to learn Dutch and probably reeducate themselves on a lot of things before they can work here. That will take years and a lot of money from both sides. We need immigrants for a lot of the work like that big gay guy named Kirk said, but we need immigrants with experience in certain fields with the required language skills and an education. And the fact is the majority of the people that come here don't have that (yet). Making them cost us a lot of money to get them on the same level and because they are usually less educated don't have jobs or worse jobs and make less money they have fewer chances and a bigger chance to get into a welfare program or for their children to enter crime...

Immigration policies shouldn't be like a big jar of candy that let's you choose all the best ones, and leave all the others for 'lesser' nations. There are a myriad of circumstances that could denote why a person's language skills or educational background are low. Discriminating against them will only continue to hold them back. It's not a solution, and it's not a reason for not allowing them in.

Originally posted by Fishy
That's a big problem with immigrants they are often poor compared to the people already living here. That plus an obvious cultural difference makes it very hard for many of them to get a job and to get a good life, to change that will cost millions and we simply do not have the money to educate everybody give them all jobs and good lives, we or any other country in the world for that matter simply can't pull that off.

Wait...what's that? Are you expecting a line of millionaire immigrants pushing to get in at your border? Hahaha...Funny. Cultural differences can be overcome, and more people means more jobs which in turn means more taxes to be used on education. Problem solved.

Originally posted by Fishy
I actually completely agree with this, I'm just saying we shouldn't let everybody enter this country because that will just end up hurting the economy. It's sad but you have to be selective when you choose who to let into the country or not, there simply isn't any other way. This isn't a perfect world.

This is complete garbage with absolutely no basis in reality.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Regardless of this ^ being quite a ridiculous statement, following your rationale all the people in the country who are doing this should be kicked out. Life doesn't work like that. If a person chooses to live in a country with a supportive welfare state, is unemployed, and thus claim benefits, then they are not doing anything lawfully wrong.

The people that are here already, live here... They deserve what the state is supposed to give them. People that don't live here, don't deserve it. Sorry but thats just how it works. No country in the world can provide welfare to the all people living bellow poverty level in the world, if it was possible I would be for it, but it's not so dream on not going to happen. Allowing all immigrants in however will provide a situation like that.

Spain just last year gave a general pardon to 600.000 immigrants living there, and guess what happened, more and more people are trying to enter Spain each day hoping to get the same kind of treatment, far more people then before. Western nations will be overrun if we just allow it all.

I'm guessing the place you work begins with a 'Mc'? What other kind of workplace is going to have a student 'boss'? Anyway, all of this part of your post doesn't have much resonance in the discussion.

ICT at a school, of course I don't run the ICT department I just tel interns and him what to do when to do it and often learn them how to do it... and btw: the school doesn't have an M in it...

Immigration policies shouldn't be like a big jar of candy that let's you choose all the best ones, and leave all the others for 'lesser' nations. There are a myriad of circumstances that could denote why a person's language skills or educational background are low. Discriminating against them will only continue to hold them back. It's not a solution, and it's not a reason for not allowing them in.

And allowing them all in will do what? Even if 10% would try to go to school and get an education our schools would be overrun, we already have to few teachers. So thats not possible we got to keep some of them out. Given certain circumstances we can't be picky and we'll just have to let them in, but at other times when people can live safely in their own country's they should stay there. Otherwise you'll ruin one country's its chances just to help another... Noble but incredibly stupid.

Wait...what's that? Are you expecting a line of millionaire immigrants pushing to get in at your border? Hahaha...Funny. Cultural differences can be overcome, and more people means more jobs which in turn means more taxes to be used on education. Problem solved.

Now who's being simplistic...

More people mean more jobs, well paying jobs or low end jobs usually provided by the government? Jobs that don't give the people a lot of spending power just enough to get around...They will be unlikely to get jobs that we can use instead they will get jobs that tons of peopleare doing already or work that teenagers can do. Of course teenagers are cheaper, so who do you think most company's are going to hire? Now of course you might get them better jobs later on, but that would require an education, or work experience. an education would require teachers and money we don't have... Work experience would require them to work cheap which they won't... Actually which they by law can't.

Of course there are jobs that they could do, but those jobs don't often pay high salary's meaning they will still be at the bottom of the barrel, education will still cost the government and they will hardly provide for the economy... Middle class people are the driving sector for the economy, lower class people economically speaking are not.

So we could go into a debt greater then the US with a population 17 times smaller to help these people and make sure they can help our economy or be selective about who we let in...

This is complete garbage with absolutely no basis in reality.

I believe it's the other way around really, if this was even slightly possible we would have done it already.

There wouldn't be any cultural differences between natives and people that just came here, and even people who have lived here for three generations.... There wouldn't be a education setback in so called black neighbourhoods, which the government is trying to erase but they find it's harder then normal because of the cultural differences and the lack of money the government and those parents have, not to mention the lack of teachers....

Do you think it's a coincidence most immigrants, second or third generation even live in the poorer neighbourhoods? Even the people with an education have to fight really hard and it's hard to compete against somebody who actually had the benefits of learning the language the culture and the job in Dutch from the day they were born... (On the possitive side, there are less homeless immigrants then there are natives...)

You are being idealistic and impossible... We should always try to make sure immigrants can get in and get a life here make sure they get jobs an education and at least understand, respect, andd accept our culture (which a lot but far from all do).

I think immigration should be legal and controlled but immigrants should

1)Intergrate to the country they are moving to, do not try to bring your old country with you
2)Learn the principal language of the country you are moving to, do not expect your new home to accomadate you by posting signs in your native tongue everywhere
3)Do not expect welfare and handouts from the country you are moving to.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
1)Intergrate to the country they are moving to, do not try to bring your old country with you.

I agree that assimilation is important, but you should still keep in touch with and acknowledge your culture.

In fact, if you dont do that then I think there's something wrong.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
2)Learn the principal language of the country you are moving to, do not expect your new home to accomadate you by posting signs in your native tongue everywhere

👆 Although, it can be good for business.

Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
3)Do not expect welfare and handouts from the country you are moving to.

That should be a given.

Originally posted by Fishy
The people that are here already, live here... They deserve what the state is supposed to give them. People that don't live here, don't deserve it. Sorry but thats just how it works. No country in the world can provide welfare to the all people living bellow poverty level in the world, if it was possible I would be for it, but it's not so dream on not going to happen. Allowing all immigrants in however will provide a situation like that.

Spain just last year gave a general pardon to 600.000 immigrants living there, and guess what happened, more and more people are trying to enter Spain each day hoping to get the same kind of treatment, far more people then before. Western nations will be overrun if we just allow it all.

Pure hyperbole, without even a footing in reality. If you beg to differ, show some evidence to support your opinion.

Originally posted by Fishy
ICT at a school, of course I don't run the ICT department I just tel interns and him what to do when to do it and often learn them how to do it... and btw: the school doesn't have an M in it...

Weird. That's about all I can muster.

Originally posted by Fishy
And allowing them all in will do what? Even if 10% would try to go to school and get an education our schools would be overrun, we already have to few teachers. So thats not possible we got to keep some of them out. Given certain circumstances we can't be picky and we'll just have to let them in, but at other times when people can live safely in their own country's they should stay there. Otherwise you'll ruin one country's its chances just to help another... Noble but incredibly stupid.

Oh, dear. I originally enjoyed this discussion, but I now I see that you're just speaking some bullshit that you probably read in a conservative newspaper's editorial. That's not very stimulating.

Originally posted by Fishy
Now who's being simplistic...

More people mean more jobs, well paying jobs or low end jobs usually provided by the government? Jobs that don't give the people a lot of spending power just enough to get around...They will be unlikely to get jobs that we can use instead they will get jobs that tons of peopleare doing already or work that teenagers can do. Of course teenagers are cheaper, so who do you think most company's are going to hire? Now of course you might get them better jobs later on, but that would require an education, or work experience. an education would require teachers and money we don't have... Work experience would require them to work cheap which they won't... Actually which they by law can't.

Your grasp of economics is as poor as your comprehension of immigration.

Originally posted by Fishy
Of course there are jobs that they could do, but those jobs don't often pay high salary's meaning they will still be at the bottom of the barrel, education will still cost the government and they will hardly provide for the economy... Middle class people are the driving sector for the economy, lower class people economically speaking are not.

So we could go into a debt greater then the US with a population 17 times smaller to help these people and make sure they can help our economy or be selective about who we let in...

Copy my previous statement, and then post it again here.

Originally posted by Fishy
I believe it's the other way around really, if this was even slightly possible we would have done it already.

There wouldn't be any cultural differences between natives and people that just came here, and even people who have lived here for three generations.... There wouldn't be a education setback in so called black neighbourhoods, which the government is trying to erase but they find it's harder then normal because of the cultural differences and the lack of money the government and those parents have, not to mention the lack of teachers....

Do you think it's a coincidence most immigrants, second or third generation even live in the poorer neighbourhoods? Even the people with an education have to fight really hard and it's hard to compete against somebody who actually had the benefits of learning the language the culture and the job in Dutch from the day they were born... (On the possitive side, there are less homeless immigrants then there are natives...)

You are being idealistic and impossible... We should always try to make sure immigrants can get in and get a life here make sure they get jobs an education and at least understand, respect, andd accept our culture (which a lot but far from all do).

Sorry, I'm bored out of my brains. You win.

Okay then please explain to me how people can get a job, without an education and without speaking the language of the country they are in?

Please, more people does not equal more jobs... At least not at the same quanity's, ten million new people will always create new jobs but not enough for those ten million. Still if you can find a way go ahead and have fun.

And honestly trying to call me a conservative getting info from conservative news? Really you should come to this country once and just try to find one conservative news outlet, that's not a part of the small christian right in this country a group I do not belong too...

And if you honestly think you have a better grasp of what is possible in this country then the politicians that rule it then you should write them with your plans that are apparently supposed to be basic knowledge, so please if it's all doable explain how...

and by the way, we do actually have a teachers shortage here, a huge one... Think you can solve that by getting more students into schools?

Originally posted by Fishy
Okay then please explain to me how people can get a job, without an education and without speaking the language of the country they are in?

Many countries employ people who cannot speak the local lingo as laborers.

Originally posted by Fishy
Please, more people does not equal more jobs... At least not at the same quanity's, ten million new people will always create new jobs but not enough for those ten million. Still if you can find a way go ahead and have fun.

I can't really make sense of what you're saying, but surely you're not saying 10 million immigrants would immediately choose Holland...Right?

Originally posted by Fishy
And honestly trying to call me a conservative getting info from conservative news? Really you should come to this country once and just try to find one conservative news outlet, that's not a part of the small christian right in this country a group I do not belong too...

And if you honestly think you have a better grasp of what is possible in this country then the politicians that rule it then you should write them with your plans that are apparently supposed to be basic knowledge, so please if it's all doable explain how...

Hollands a nice enough country, but I'm not really interested in doing either of those things. So, eh...I won't.

Originally posted by Fishy
and by the way, we do actually have a teachers shortage here, a huge one... Think you can solve that by getting more students into schools?

How about getting some immigrant teachers in? A lot of richer countries do that...

That's it from me. Take care now.

Many countries employ people who cannot speak the local lingo as laborers.

And how many jobs could those people do?? We need doctors, lawyers, teachers and whatever people like that need an education and need to speak the language...

How about getting some immigrant teachers in? A lot of richer countries do that...

And unless they want to teach people stuff in their native language they are going to need to speak Dutch and be a licensed teacher, which means you have to take an exam and likely classes in order to pass it...

Hollands a nice enough country, but I'm not really interested in doing either of those things. So, eh...I won't.

Then just take my word for it, there aren't any conservative news stations here, and I'm not a conservative

I can't really make sense of what you're saying, but surely you're not saying 10 million immigrants would immediately choose Holland...Right?

Pretty much, this country only has 17 million people, even if half of those people could immediately find a job, we would still have 5 million people without a job, Holland would go broke in no time...

Less immigrants would of course do less damage, but you have to limit the amount because we don't have jobs, land, money or an education to make sure they can all immigrate succesfuly