Shaak Ti wins this. Shii-Cho is bad for facing a single opponent, especially a Makashi wielding opponent, like Shaak. They appear to be equals in speed, Shaak Ti fighting an army of MagnaGuards and hitting them before they could react and Kit slicing through two MagnaGuards with ease. The dueling edge should go to Shaak. Dooku considered her a threat to Grievous and she only lost because she was exhausted in both bouts, she held of Anakin Skywalker and was generaly belived to be one of the best swordsmen of her day. She also appears to be more powerful in the Force, using tutaminis, kinetite, controling plants and animals, etc. She takes this, though Kit is not going down without a fight.
Originally posted by WollfMythDidn't stop him from facing Obi-Wan Kenobi and being better than him in the Cestus Deception. Shii-Cho on-paper is bad for facing single opponents but Fisto takes it to such a level that that can be thrown out the window. You could make a case for Makashi being a good counter for Shii-Cho but then the only time that ever came into play for Fisto was after Ventress had studied his fighting style and ambushed him. So I'm not convinced Shaak's presence as a lone fighter or her lightsaber style is going to impact this in any significant manner.
Shaak Ti wins this. Shii-Cho is bad for facing a single opponent, especially a Makashi wielding opponent, like Shaak.
As for the thread, Fisto is the better duelist by a fair margin while Ti is much stronger in the Force by TFU. Although if we're going by their RotS incarnations Ti's edge in power isn't really a factor.
If it's TFU Ti going with her, if it's RotS versions, which is kind of what this thread had planned for initially given it was created in 2006, I'm going with Fisto.
Two different things:
The narrative of the ROTS novel makes that statement.
However characters have believed all sorts of things, NJO Luke believed Yoda, not himself, was the most powerful Jedi ever. Windu thought Kenobi to be superior for mastering a classic form, etc, etc..
Regardless Shaak Ti performed better against Grievous and a swathe of MaganGuards than Fisto did against Grievous and much less... he basically ran away.
Ti merely survived against Grievous for a decent period of time before being defeated, and she stalemated a single Magnaguard for a long time with her lightsaber. Her defeating the other Magnaguards was due to her electrostaff, which makes little sense but I digress. Fisto actually disarmed Grievous and had him on the losing end, forcing him to call in Magnaguards for help. And on another occasion Fisto absolutely wrecked a pair of Magnaguards.
Regardless, Fisto has a form advantage over Grievous and TCW Grievous is awful to begin with in comparison to the one Shaak fought, so comparing their fights against Grievous isn't a sure fire way of comparing their dueling skill anyway.
Fisto just has better dueling feats, plain and simple. Being both faster and more skilled than AotC Kenobi puts him above Shaak Ti, due to Kenobi's ability to challenge Dooku at this point in time, and going by accolades Fisto has Ti beaten out. Yeno, unless we misconstrue some statements into them meaning that Shaak Ti is one of the best in the Order and a peer of Dooku like people so often do with her...
I am siding with Fisto on this one, I don't know how effective Shaak Ti's makashsi is, but clearly she is not on Ventress's level.
Btw, Fisto didn't out-sparred Obi-Wan in CD, Obi-Wan just said that Fisto is better ''swordfighter'' than himself because he was faster and more aggressive, swordfighter & duelist , these are different things.
Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other's defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style.- Cestus Deception
''better swordfighter'' not better duelist or fencer.
Obi-Wan and Fisto sparred over one hour, each seeking holes in other's defense.
''Comparision with Obi-Wan's more measured style'' this part is important, Obi-Wan is using more measured style it is also suitable for lightsaber duels, unlike Fisto's Shii-Cho.
For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective against weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters.- AotC Novelization
In the AotC novel, it is clearly says that Dooku is not a ''swordfighter'' , means swordfighter types can destroy group of droids, creatures etc. much easier, while Dooku type fencers, duelists can be much more effective in lightsaber to lightsaber combat only.
Shaak Ti has far more than just one quote to support her being in the upper echelons of the High Council.
Praised by Kenobi? check.
Praised by Dooku? check.
Praised by Windu? check.
Also you're way over simplifying the fight they had on Coruscant, she along with a few Jedi fought Grievous whilst attempting to protect the Chancellor for what seemed like fairly long as this seemed to carry on during the battle itself.
During this she outwitted the Kaleesh repeatedly, used Force Speed to a degree that she was out-running a train, used Force Jump across towers, etc... finally she tried to save the Chancellor by seemingly throwing herself at the lone enemy MagnaGuards when Grievous wasn't around, and was clearly dominating them in their fight, destroying eight of them despite them numbering fifteen.
This is then revealed to be a ruse, meant to draw Ti away from the Chancellor, then she attempts the save and finally, after a marathon of a rescue attempt goes down.
To get back to the original debate, I highly doubt that I am the one taking the aforementioned ROTS quote out of context, as when actually taking into context the entire page and what it is going to the trouble of narrating, you get a pretty obvious conclusion.
Which is whether or not Obi-Wan is the best choice to take down Grievous, it then goes on to describe why he, such a seemingly simple Form III duelist, is so skilled.
Because he is simplicity itself and that itself is a strength, Windu actually extrapolates on this by saying that himself and Yoda are merely substituting for their own respective weaknesses, whereas Kenobi has taken a classic form to it's highest degree.
This in turn has concluded for us that the 'great sword-beings of the Order' are Yoda, Windu, Dooku, Anakin, Ti, Depa and Kenobi himself.
This is however ignoring a whole ton of other Ti feats, so let's not ignore:
Tanking a blaster shot between the globes.
Dodging simultaneous omni-directional blaster shots without any injury whilst also using TK to move someone else out the way.
Healing said blaster shot after stomping the mercenaries that had attacked her.
Solely protecting her Clone Troopers from a droid army long enough for Ki-Adi Mundi to mount the rescue.
Blitzed droids from a considerable distance then uses TK and lightsaber throw to destroy another group.
Blocking several electrostaff blows with her bare hands.
Used Tutaminis to block a lightsaber strike.
Displays Force Speed comparable to a blaster bolt.
Used Telekinesis to collapse a tunnel, something Obi-Wan states is incredible.
The TFU CG points to her immediately causing a considerable effect on Felucia during her arrival, with the Light Side immediately returning some balance to the planet. The Prime Guide also goes on to say that Ti's 'force link' to Maris Brood is what stopped her from going full DS straight away.
I also question separating the feats of ROTS Ti and TFU Ti, especially those of a lightsaber, it's not as if she had anyone to fight in those 16 years, which if and of itself makes her utter domination of Starkiller even more impressive.
Originally posted by TrocityTo some degree, yes, which is especially impressive given that Kenobi was using Ataru in that fight, a form Dooku knows inside and out.
Kenobi challenged Dooku in that fight? 😬
Dooku smiled and ignited a red-glowing blade.Was Dooku winning solidly? Yep. But Kenobi wasn't so bad that he couldn't hold on for lengthy period of time, and Dooku's knowledge of Kenobi's form wasn't helping matters. And there was a period in the fight where Kenobi was able to genuinely challenge Dooku, which I underlined.Obi-Wan stepped slowly at first, then came on in a sudden rush, his blue blade coming in hard, right to left.
But with only a slight movement, the red blade stabbed under the blue, then lifted up, and Obi-Wan's blade went flying harmlessly high of the mark. With a slight reversal of his wrist, Dooku stabbed straight ahead, and Obi-Wan had to throw himself backward. He brought his lightsaber across as he did, trying to parry, but Dooku had already retracted his blade by then and had settled back into perfect defensive posture.
Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move. For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective against weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters. The Jedi on the whole had abandoned that old fighting style, considering it almost irrelevant against the enemies of the present galaxy, but Dooku had always held stubbornly to it, considering it among the highest of fighting disciplines.
Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance. Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient. He followed a single line, front and back, his feet shifting to keep him constantly in perfect balance as he retreated and came on suddenly with devastating thrusts that had Obi-Wan stumbling backward. "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me," the Count taunted. "Yoda holds you in such high esteem."
His words spurred Obi-Wan forward with another series of slashes and chops, but Dooku's red blade angled left and then right, then up just enough to send Obi-Wan's descending blade slipping off to the side. Obi-Wan had to retreat soon after, gasping for breath.
"Come, come, Master Kenobi," Dooku said, his lips curled in a wicked smile. "Put me out of my misery."
Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay.
Obi-Wan pressed forward more forcefully, but Dooku continued to fend off the strikes, and then his momentum played out. He was too far forward, while Dooku remained in perfect balance, ready for a counterstrike.
And then it was Dooku suddenly pressing the attack, his red blade stabbing and retracting so quickly that most of Obi-Wan's cutting parries hit nothing but air. Obi-Wan had to jump back, and then back again, and again, as those thrusts moved ever closer to hitting home.
Dooku stepped forward suddenly, stabbing low for Obi-Wan's thigh. Down went the blue blade to intercept, but to Obi-Wan's horror, Dooku retracted his weapon and thrust it right back out, up high and across the other way. Obi-Wan couldn't get his weapon back to block, nor could he slide back fast enough.
Dooku's red blade stabbed hard into his left shoulder, and as he lurched back, Dooku retracted the blade and stabbed along its original course, digging into Obi-Wan's right thigh. The Jedi stumbled backward, tripping and crashing hard against the wall, but even as he fell, Dooku was there, his red blade rolling over and inside Obi-Wan's blade, and with a sudden jerk, he sent Obi-Wan's lightsaber bouncing across the floor.
"And so it ends," Dooku said to the helpless Obi-Wan. With a shrug, the elegant Count lifted his red blade up high, then brought it down hard at Obi-Wan's head.
And Fisto was both faster and more skilled than Kenobi around this time period. In my mind this gives him more claim to being superior to Shaak Ti than her overhyped statements.