23 Minutes In Hell (A True Story)

Originally posted by Bardock42
I love Chick Tracts

Me too.

Father: Son, if you love me then obey me.

Son: But what if I don't?

Father: Well, then you won't have any discipline or character and you will probably end up in prison--for life.

Son: So if I don't do as you say then I'm going to jail?

Father: Not necessarily, but you will increase the likelihood of that.

Son: Are you threatening me?

Father: No, but I am wiser than you son, and more experienced. I know many of the pitfalls that exist, and I'm trying to prevent you from making wrong choices by giving you proper home training now, before you become an adult. I don't want anything bad to ever happen to you because I love you.

Son: I understand. You can see the big picture because of your wisdom and experience. In short, you know more than I do about life.

Father: Exactly.

Just as in the illustration above, God knows the big picture. He sees the end at the beginning. He knows all of the trouble that's out there. So when God tells a person that if he sins he will die, He's just being a loving Father. Operating counter to God's Word leads to death because all of His ways are holy, good, just, righteous, and perfect.

Just as nothing good ever comes from disobeying your parents, nothing good ever comes from disobeying God. The wages of sin is death because God is Life. When we break away from Life the alternative is death. When we keep God's Word we stay connected to Life. When we sin we reap death. It is a natural consequence just like cause and effect.

So God is not threatening anyone with Hell for not worshiping Him. Just as parents bring a child into the world for the express purpose of having a relationship with that child, God created humanity for the express purpose of having a relationship with Him.

Because God never dies, this relationship was intended to be forever. There is no emancipating yourself from the One who created you like teenagers do to their parents now. God loves you with an everlasting love that warns you of the consequences of sinning against Him, and breaking His laws.

Unlike sinful parents when you break God's law it leads to death, first spiritually and then physically (that's why we die). God told the first man and woman what would happen if they chose to disobey His law. He loved them so much that He gave them the ability to choose to obey Him or choose to disobey Him, and warned them of the consequences of choosing the latter.

Hell was originally prepared (i.e. created) for the devil and his angels, but has since become the abode of all those who sin (i.e. break God's law). Remember: the wages of sin is death because sin separates us from God Who is holy. It is not God's will for anyone to suffer eternally in Hell that's why He sent His Son Jesus to die. Jesus Christ died to pay the wages of our sins so that we could be set free from its eternal consequence (i.e. separation from God in the lake of fire).

Anyone can avoid the consequence of sin by simply putting their faith (or trust) in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior, and receive eternal life, righteousness (which is right-standing with God), and life in Heaven with God.

Anyone who rejects God's solution for their sin problem has chosen by default to spend eternity in Hell because there is no other place for their eternal spirit to go when they die physically. There is no purgatory. There is no limbo. There is only Heaven or Hell.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=454267&pagenumber=32#post14421866

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=422284&pagenumber=11#post14420849

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453885

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

A picture is worth a thousand words!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0006/0006_01.asp (Somebody Loves You)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1018/1018_01.asp (Unloved?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0085/0085_01.asp (A Love Story)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp (This Was Your Life)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp (We Descended From Apes?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0020/0020_01.asp (Am I A Fool?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1021/1021_01.asp (What?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1002/1002_01.asp (I Do Know It All)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp (Mormonism)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp (Masonry)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5022/5022_01.asp (Masons)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp (Buddah?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp (Islam?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1004/1004_01.asp (Islam??)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1011/1011_01.asp (Islam???)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0070/0070_01.asp (Hinduism?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0026/0026_01.asp (Jehovah's Witnesses?)

Hell is reading this thread. It is not a place you go when you die. Seek out Buddhism for the answers. :-)

Father: Son, if you love me then obey me.

Son: But what if I don't?

Father: Well, then you won't have any discipline or character and you will probably end up in prison--for life.

Son: So if I don't do as you say then I'm going to jail?

Father: Not necessarily, but you will increase the likelihood of that.

Son: Are you threatening me?

Father: No, but I am wiser than you son, and more experienced. I know many of the pitfalls that exist, and I'm trying to prevent you from making wrong choices by giving you proper home training now, before you become an adult. I don't want anything bad to ever happen to you because I love you.

Son: I understand. You can see the big picture because of your wisdom and experience. In short, you know more than I do about life.

Father: Exactly.

Just as in the illustration above, God knows the big picture. He sees the end at the beginning. He knows all of the trouble that's out there. So when God tells a person that if he sins he will die, He's just being a loving Father. Operating counter to God's Word leads to death because all of His ways are holy, good, just, righteous, and perfect.

Just as nothing good ever comes from disobeying your parents, nothing good ever comes from disobeying God. The wages of sin is death because God is Life. When we break away from Life the alternative is death. When we keep God's Word we stay connected to Life. When we sin we reap death. It is a natural consequence just like cause and effect.

So God is not threatening anyone with Hell for not worshiping Him. Just as parents bring a child into the world for the express purpose of having a relationship with that child, God created humanity for the express purpose of having a relationship with Him.

Because God never dies, this relationship was intended to be forever. There is no emancipating yourself from the One who created you like teenagers do to their parents now. God loves you with an everlasting love that warns you of the consequences of sinning against Him, and breaking His laws.

Unlike sinful parents when you break God's law it leads to death, first spiritually and then physically (that's why we die). God told the first man and woman what would happen if they chose to disobey His law. He loved them so much that He gave them the ability to choose to obey Him or choose to disobey Him, and warned them of the consequences of choosing the latter.

Hell was originally prepared (i.e. created) for the devil and his angels, but has since become the abode of all those who sin (i.e. break God's law). Remember: the wages of sin is death because sin separates us from God Who is holy. It is not God's will for anyone to suffer eternally in Hell that's why He sent His Son Jesus to die. Jesus Christ died to pay the wages of our sins so that we could be set free from its eternal consequence (i.e. separation from God in the lake of fire).

Anyone can avoid the consequence of sin by simply putting their faith (or trust) in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior, and receive eternal life, righteousness (which is right-standing with God), and life in Heaven with God.

Anyone who rejects God's solution for their sin problem has chosen by default to spend eternity in Hell because there is no other place for their eternal spirit to go when they die physically. There is no purgatory. There is no limbo. There is only Heaven or Hell.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=454267&pagenumber=32#post14421866

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=422284&pagenumber=11#post14420849

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453885

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

A picture is worth a thousand words!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0006/0006_01.asp (Somebody Loves You)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1018/1018_01.asp (Unloved?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0085/0085_01.asp (A Love Story)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp (This Was Your Life)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp (We Descended From Apes?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0020/0020_01.asp (Am I A Fool?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1021/1021_01.asp (What?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1002/1002_01.asp (I Do Know It All)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp (Mormonism)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp (Masonry)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5022/5022_01.asp (Masons)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp (Buddah?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp (Islam?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1004/1004_01.asp (Islam??)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1011/1011_01.asp (Islam???)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0070/0070_01.asp (Hinduism?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0026/0026_01.asp (Jehovah's Witnesses?)

Wait, did I see that before. See Buddhism for the answer.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Do you get to ride unicorns while in hell?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And I am asking can people ride unicorns in hell.

😄 Lol dude, you just made my night. 😄

Just go easy on JIA, he/she is really probably a sweet person.

Originally posted by COG Veteran
😄 Lol dude, you just made my night. 😄

Just go easy on JIA, he/she is really probably a sweet person.

He is my friend. :-)

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[b]Father: Son, if you love me then obey me.

Son: But what if I don't?

Father: Well, then you won't have any discipline or character and you will probably end up in prison--for life.

Son: So if I don't do as you say then I'm going to jail?

Father: Not necessarily, but you will increase the likelihood of that.

Son: Are you threatening me?

Father: No, but I am wiser than you son, and more experienced. I know many of the pitfalls that exist, and I'm trying to prevent you from making wrong choices by giving you proper home training now, before you become an adult. I don't want anything bad to ever happen to you because I love you.

Son: I understand. You can see the big picture because of your wisdom and experience. In short, you know more than I do about life.

Father: Exactly.

Just as in the illustration above, God knows the big picture. He sees the end at the beginning. He knows all of the trouble that's out there. So when God tells a person that if he sins he will die, He's just being a loving Father. Operating counter to God's Word leads to death because all of His ways are holy, good, just, righteous, and perfect.

Just as nothing good ever comes from disobeying your parents, nothing good ever comes from disobeying God. The wages of sin is death because God is Life. When we break away from Life the alternative is death. When we keep God's Word we stay connected to Life. When we sin we reap death. It is a natural consequence just like cause and effect.

So God is not threatening anyone with Hell for not worshiping Him. Just as parents bring a child into the world for the express purpose of having a relationship with that child, God created humanity for the express purpose of having a relationship with Him.

Because God never dies, this relationship was intended to be forever. There is no emancipating yourself from the One who created you like teenagers do to their parents now. God loves you with an everlasting love that warns you of the consequences of sinning against Him, and breaking His laws.

Unlike sinful parents when you break God's law it leads to death, first spiritually and then physically (that's why we die). God told the first man and woman what would happen if they chose to disobey His law. He loved them so much that He gave them the ability to choose to obey Him or choose to disobey Him, and warned them of the consequences of choosing the latter.

Hell was originally prepared (i.e. created) for the devil and his angels, but has since become the abode of all those who sin (i.e. break God's law). Remember: the wages of sin is death because sin separates us from God Who is holy. It is not God's will for anyone to suffer eternally in Hell that's why He sent His Son Jesus to die. Jesus Christ died to pay the wages of our sins so that we could be set free from its eternal consequence (i.e. separation from God in the lake of fire).

Anyone can avoid the consequence of sin by simply putting their faith (or trust) in Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior, and receive eternal life, righteousness (which is right-standing with God), and life in Heaven with God.

Anyone who rejects God's solution for their sin problem has chosen by default to spend eternity in Hell because there is no other place for their eternal spirit to go when they die physically. There is no purgatory. There is no limbo. There is only Heaven or Hell.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=454267&pagenumber=32#post14421866

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=422284&pagenumber=11#post14420849

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453885

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

A picture is worth a thousand words!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0006/0006_01.asp (Somebody Loves You)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1018/1018_01.asp (Unloved?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0085/0085_01.asp (A Love Story)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp (This Was Your Life)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp (We Descended From Apes?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0020/0020_01.asp (Am I A Fool?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1021/1021_01.asp (What?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1002/1002_01.asp (I Do Know It All)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp (Mormonism)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp (Masonry)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5022/5022_01.asp (Masons)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0016/0016_01.asp (Buddah?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp (Islam?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1004/1004_01.asp (Islam??)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1011/1011_01.asp (Islam???)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0070/0070_01.asp (Hinduism?)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0026/0026_01.asp (Jehovah's Witnesses?) [/B]

This is what happens when you think passion and rhetoric can substitute for logic and consistency.

Your analogy doesn't make any sense:

1. The father is warning his son about consequences beyond his own control, from a source above him. God has every ability to control hell if he wants to. The father here cannot. The father here is also referring to a prison system designed primarily to rehabilitate and provide justice, not to torture people for eternity without any end objective.

2. The father is warning his son not to commit immoral acts. God seems to think that "not worshiping me every week" is immoral. Going back to your use of RL analogies, could you imagine how you would feel if a "charitable" leader threatened all who didn't respect him with unending torture?

What kind of humanitarian demands worship and constant praise? Does God not know about humility?

3. The notion that those who reject God's "salvation" deserve hell because they chose it for themselves ignore the fact that God never gives us any reasonable basis to believe in his existence.

Why does God consider blind faith a virtue? That seems to disturbingly mirror the "blind faith" corrupt regimes and oppressive systems encourage ahead of rational thought and free thinking.

4. You ignored my quibble about the Bible telling rape victims to marry their rapists.

Did you know that God also explicitly ordered the extermination of entire ethnic groups down to the last man, woman and child?

Or that "Saint" Paul forbid women from speaking in his church?

Or that the Bible never explicitly abolishes slavery?

Originally posted by Master Han
This is what happens when you think passion and rhetoric can substitute for logic and consistency.

Your analogy doesn't make any sense:

1. The father is warning his son about consequences beyond his own control, from a source above him. God has every ability to control hell if he wants to. The father here cannot. The father here is also referring to a prison system designed primarily to rehabilitate and provide justice, not to torture people for eternity without any end objective.

2. The father is warning his son not to commit immoral acts. God seems to think that "not worshiping me every week" is immoral. Going back to your use of RL analogies, could you imagine how you would feel if a "charitable" leader threatened all who didn't respect him with unending torture?

What kind of humanitarian demands worship and constant praise? Does God not know about humility?

3. The notion that those who reject God's "salvation" deserve hell because they chose it for themselves ignore the fact that God never gives us any reasonable basis to believe in his existence.

Why does God consider blind faith a virtue? That seems to disturbingly mirror the "blind faith" corrupt regimes and oppressive systems encourage ahead of rational thought and free thinking.

4. You ignored my quibble about the Bible telling rape victims to marry their rapists.

Did you know that God also explicitly ordered the extermination of entire ethnic groups down to the last man, woman and child?

Or that "Saint" Paul forbid women from speaking in his church?

Or that the Bible never explicitly abolishes slavery?

This is what happens when you think passion and rhetoric can substitute for logic and consistency.

Your analogy doesn't make any sense:

1. The father is warning his son about consequences beyond his own control, from a source above him. God has every ability to control hell if he wants to. The father here cannot. The father here is also referring to a prison system designed primarily to rehabilitate and provide justice, not to torture people for eternity without any end objective.

God’s ability is limited by His justness. In other words, since God is just He cannot allow sin to go unpunished. This would violate His righteousness, call in to question His character as Judge of the earth, and compromise Who He is—and His own law—which He cannot do. A true, righteous earthly judge would never permit a killer or rapist to go unpunished. God is infinitely more holy and righteous than any human judge. His standard is Jesus Christ—who never knew sin, never committed sin, and in Him no sin exists.

Again, I have already explained that Hell was never intended for humanity. But human beings are tripartite creatures consisting of spirit, soul, and body. The spirit and soul are eternal. What that means is when the body dies the spirit and soul continue to exist in another realm forever. So the sentence of Hell is forever just as the pronouncement of Heaven is forever. Heaven is the antithesis of Hell in every way.

There are only two places where the spirit and soul can go at death: Heaven or Hell. The torment of Hell is irrelevant because the peace of Heaven is available to the sinner. Just as the torment of Hell is forever, the bliss of Heaven is also forever.

2. The father is warning his son not to commit immoral acts. God seems to think that "not worshiping me every week" is immoral. Going back to your use of RL analogies, could you imagine how you would feel if a "charitable" leader threatened all who didn't respect him with unending torture?

What kind of humanitarian demands worship and constant praise? Does God not know about humility?

God’s thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways God’s ways. Remember you are the creature (i.e. the created thing), and God is the Creator (i.e. the One doing the creating). Know that the Lord, He is God. It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves. We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

God created you and not the other way around. You are trying to make God fit your finite mind’s paradigm about how God should relate to His creation. But it does not work that way. Your children don’t get to dictate to you how they should be raised. Your pets don’t get to tell you what pet food you should feed them, or whether or not they should be confined to a cage or leash. Your musical compositions don’t have a say in their melody, construction, or sound. Your artwork has no say over how it should look. Your invention is a product of your mind and not the other way around. Your material possessions belong to you and you can do with them whatever you choose.

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

3. The notion that those who reject God's "salvation" deserve hell because they chose it for themselves ignore the fact that God never gives us any reasonable basis to believe in his existence.

Why does God consider blind faith a virtue? That seems to disturbingly mirror the "blind faith" corrupt regimes and oppressive systems encourage ahead of rational thought and free thinking.

For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Everything that you need to know about God has been reasonably provided for you. All you have to do is look around you. Look at the beauty that exists on this planet in nature—not at the corruption caused by sinful humanity choosing to live apart from God—and you can clearly see God’s wisdom, infinite understanding, power, glory, and love. Consider the beauty of a red rose, the eagle, or the peacock. Consider the complexity, function, and design of the human cell, DNA, the human eye, the heart, the liver, the lungs, the human brain, and the digestive system.

The sun, moon, stars, sky, and this planet are not the product of a random explosion. This universe and everything in it is an orderly arrangement. So orderly in fact that the weather can be predicted accurately.

4. You ignored my quibble about the Bible telling rape victims to marry their rapists.

Did you know that God also explicitly ordered the extermination of entire ethnic groups down to the last man, woman and child?

Or that "Saint" Paul forbid women from speaking in his church?

Or that the Bible never explicitly abolishes slavery?

I could sit here and explain away all of your points and you still would not understand what I am saying because you are a natural man. What this means is you are spiritually dead, not connected to God, or carnal. You do not have the capacity to understand spiritual things because you are spiritually dead (i.e. cut off from the life of God). You are like a telephone cord that is disconnected from the phone outlet. God’s talking to you through the Bible but you cannot hear Him. You need God’s Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside of your spirit to transmit revelation to you. The Bible is a spiritual Book.

You are not equipped to understand the Bible with your unregenerate, natural mind because the carnal (fleshly, unrenewed) mind is enmity against God. For it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. But the natural man (i.e. person who is not born again) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (you cannot understand the Bible because its words are spirit and life i.e. designed to appeal to or reach your spirit, and make your mind or thoughts new).

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. Until you become born again you will not be able to judge (i.e. comprehend, discern, know, or understand) spiritual things like God’s methods, manners, practices, ways, or will. None of it will make any sense to you. That’s why you have such a hard time understanding what you read in the Bible. You are spiritually out of your league.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=454267&pagenumber=32#post14421866

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=422284&pagenumber=11#post14420849

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453885

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

For someone that supposes to speak on the goodness of God, you really are pretty damn mean.

I doubt any god would want a messenger like you speaking for them, tbh.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
God’s ability is limited by His justness. In other words, since God is just He cannot allow sin to go unpunished. This would violate His righteousness, call in to question His character as Judge of the earth, and compromise Who He is—and His own law—which He cannot do. A true, righteous earthly judge would never permit a killer or rapist to go unpunished. God is infinitely more holy and righteous than any human judge. His standard is Jesus Christ—who never knew sin, never committed sin, and in Him no sin exists.

So not believing in God is as immoral as murder or rape now?

And in what bizzare moral code is "eternal punishment" a just punishment, rather than simple annihilation?

And please don't respond by claiming that the soul is immortal; it's well within God's power to destroy one permanently.

Even the most heinous criminals are simply punished with execution, and many states are outlawing even that. Nobody would support heinously and eternally tormenting a person for not believing in something...unless if it's God who's doing it.

Again, I have already explained that Hell was never intended for humanity. But human beings are tripartite creatures consisting of spirit, soul, and body. The spirit and soul are eternal. What that means is when the body dies the spirit and soul continue to exist in another realm forever. So the sentence of Hell is forever just as the pronouncement of Heaven is forever. Heaven is the antithesis of Hell in every way.

You state [alleged] facts, but do not bother to explain why they are rational. Why would God allow anyone to suffer for eternity?

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and I don't believe for a second you would, either.

Your entire argument simply ignores the fact that God is supposed to be omnipotent.

[COLOR=darkblue]God’s thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways God’s ways. Remember you are the creature (i.e. the created thing), and God is the Creator (i.e. the One doing the creating). Know that the Lord, He is God. It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves. We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

God created you and not the other way around. You are trying to make God fit your finite mind’s paradigm about how God should relate to His creation. But it does not work that way. Your children don’t get to dictate to you how they should be raised. Your pets don’t get to tell you what pet food you should feed them, or whether or not they should be confined to a cage or leash. Your musical compositions don’t have a say in their melody, construction, or sound. Your artwork has no say over how it should look. Your invention is a product of your mind and not the other way around. Your material possessions belong to you and you can do with them whatever you choose.

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

You're dismissing all legitimate criticisms of God's moral behavior by circularly defining him as perfect and beyond reproach, when it should be the other way around.

You're judging morality based on who's doing it, not on what's being done. It's OK when God does it, but if I were to try half the shit that you praise the Lord for doing, you wouldn't let me within ten kilometers of anyone you care about.

I could use your circular logic to declare any evil man to be perfect and infallible, and then dismiss any criticisms on the basis of your not being able to understand his vast intellect...you see the problem here?

Greater intellect equals more rationality, not less.

Furthermore, truly great leaders encourage peaceful discourse and criticism, while God seems to punish it.

For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Everything that you need to know about God has been reasonably provided for you. All you have to do is look around you. Look at the beauty that exists on this planet in nature—not at the corruption caused by sinful humanity choosing to live apart from God—and you can clearly see God’s wisdom, infinite understanding, power, glory, and love. Consider the beauty of a red rose, the eagle, or the peacock. Consider the complexity, function, and design of the human cell, DNA, the human eye, the heart, the liver, the lungs, the human brain, and the digestive system.

The sun, moon, stars, sky, and this planet are not the product of a random explosion. This universe and everything in it is an orderly arrangement. So orderly in fact that the weather can be predicted accurately.

Actually, Evolutionary Theory better explains the beauty that exists on Earth while simultaneously explaining the evil that inflicts all beings, whether human or animal, whether saintly or evil.

You see, you're basing your logic on the notion that human sin causes all evil, yet just looking around, hurricanes and earthquakes are the result of scientific phenomenon independent and long preceding human existence, and there appears to be no correlation between righteousness and likelihood of contracting cancer, which is the corruption of healthy cells that has no bearing on the part of one's brain that handles moral decision-making.

[quote]

I could sit here and explain away all of your points and you still would not understand what I am saying because you are a natural man. What this means is you are spiritually dead, not connected to God, or carnal. You do not have the capacity to understand spiritual things because you are spiritually dead (i.e. cut off from the life of God). You are like a telephone cord that is disconnected from the phone outlet. God’s talking to you through the Bible but you cannot hear Him. You need God’s Holy Spirit dwelling on the inside of your spirit to transmit revelation to you. The Bible is a spiritual Book.

You are not equipped to understand the Bible with your unregenerate, natural mind because the carnal (fleshly, unrenewed) mind is enmity against God. For it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. But the natural man (i.e. person who is not born again) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (you cannot understand the Bible because its words are spirit and life i.e. designed to appeal to or reach your spirit, and make your mind or thoughts new).

But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. Until you become born again you will not be able to judge (i.e. comprehend, discern, know, or understand) spiritual things like God’s methods, manners, practices, ways, or will. None of it will make any sense to you. That’s why you have such a hard time understanding what you read in the Bible. You are spiritually out of your league.

I don't care about how "out of my league" you think you are spiritually - you have no concept of how to formulate a rational argument, given that you just tried to dismiss my arguments on such ridiculous grounds.

You see, I could apply EVERYTHING you just said to support the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

1. You ask for proof? Proof is in his creation, the universe!
2. You ask why people suffer? It's our own damned fault (even tornados)!
3. You ask why he does X, Y and Z? We can't hope to understand his motivations!
4. You ask something I can't counter? Why bother, you're spiritually dead!

Why do you think your empirical claim that there exists a deity of specific traits and actions forgoes the need for rational justification?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
The motion in that example is the wrong way round, maybe. Perhaps rather, if someone is planning a route through a jungle which takes them into a den of velociraptors you can either suggest a different route or chop their legs off. Depends what we think of the freedom of the travelers.

So God is the kind of person who immediately jump to "I'm going to mutilate this person!" when he want to solve a problem? I'm not sure I understand how that scenario helps you point. I mean, okay mysterious ways and all but I'm not going to call the Chops-Off-People's-Legs-Bandit omnibenevolent simply because he's a mysterious figure. In fact I'm pretty sure I'd conclude that he was a bad person.

YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ysSkC-EM1k

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0086/0086_01.asp (The Sissy)

Not even good animation.

Originally posted by Esau Cairn
JesusIsAlive why not just keep your opinions & beliefs to yourself & feel justified that at least you're going to Heaven?

Why must you condemn everyone else who doesn't believe in God or Christianity for that matter?

Is there a certain quota for conversion that you & God must vilify?

Don't you understand that it's zealots like you that turn people away from religion?

If Heaven is full of self-righteous, single-minded people like yourself than that clearly goes against the "love,peace & paradise" that you describe Heaven to be.

Well, I care about people. For this reason it would be selfish and unloving for me to keep the gospel of salvation found only in Jesus Christ to myself.

I haven't condemned anyone. But I have warned many people about the reality of Hell because I care about people.

No, there's no quota.

Zealot? I'm just a believer in Christ Jesus who cares about people enough to tell them how to receive eternal life.

Self-righteous? Single-minded? Again, I am simply a person who cares about people. There's many people in Hell right now wishing that someone cared enough to tell them about Jesus but didn't. In fact, those in Hell for eternity are so hopeless that they have one--and only one--desire: to tell their families on earth who have a chance to repent from their sins to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior before they die and end up in Hell forever.

Hell is real and it's torment goes on forever. There is no second chance once you die without Christ in your heart and life.

Below is a true story that Jesus Christ tells about Hell (or Hades):

Luke 16:19-31

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Believe it or not this rich man who died and went to Hell (Hades) is still there in torments. This man still desires for someone to dip the tip of their finger in water and cool his tongue because he is in torment caused by flame. This man is in such anguish, pain, agony, and discomfort that he doesn't even want his brothers to go to Hell. This rich man has no hope of ever getting out of Hell.

In addition to the physical torment can you imagine the mental torment that he must be experiencing? At least in this life if a person is in physical pain from let's say a terminal disease, they can die and be free from that pain. But this man is already dead. He can never be free from the torment he's experiencing. Have you ever hurt yourself really badly? Remember how much pain you were in? But eventually the pain went away and the injury healed. Maybe all you have is a scar. But you at least have relief from the pain. But this man will never have any relief from his torments. He can never go to sleep, he cannot get a drink of water, he cannot die, he cannot go crazy (yes, that would be a form of relief for him), he can't get any peace where he is not even for one second. He will be in Hell forever...

How long is forever?

Imagine if a slow flying (55mph) pelican could fly through space and land on the sun without dying. Imagine that this special pelican had to empty every beach on earth one grain at a time. The pelican has to pick up one grain of sand in its beak (each beach has a least a billion grains of sand), fly that grain to the sun (93 million miles one way), deposit that single, tiny grain, and fly back to earth (another 93 million miles). Pick up another grain and repeat this process until that one beach is empty.

A solar rocket flying at 36,500mph would take approximately 106 days. So a slow flying pelican would probably take about 192 years (one way, 384 years round trip) for just one grain of sand.

Imagine in your mind (i.e. do the math) how long that would take for this slow flying pelican to empty just one beach.

After this slow flying pelican empties that one beach remember that pelican still has thousands of other beaches to empty one grain at a time 186 million miles round trip for one grain of sand.

Now, I said all of that to say this: the rich man will not have even spent one day in eternity after the pelican empties just one beach (and there's 800,000 beaches on earth each containing a billion grains of sand).

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

Well, I care about people. For this reason it would be selfish and unloving for me to keep the gospel of salvation found only in Jesus Christ to myself.

I haven't condemned anyone. But I have warned many people about the reality of Hell because I care about people.

No, there's no quota.

Zealot? I'm just a believer in Christ Jesus who cares about people enough to tell them how to receive eternal life.

Self-righteous? Single-minded? Again, I am simply a person who cares about people. There's many people in Hell right now wishing that someone cared enough to tell them about Jesus but didn't. In fact, those in Hell for eternity are so hopeless that they have one--and only one--desire: to tell their families on earth who have a chance to repent from their sins to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior before they die and end up in Hell forever.

Hell is real and it's torment goes on forever. There is no second chance once you die without Christ in your heart and life.

Below is a true story that Jesus Christ tells about Hell (or Hades):

Luke 16:19-31

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Believe it or not this rich man who died and went to Hell (Hades) is still there in torments. This man still desires for someone to dip the tip of their finger in water and cool his tongue because he is in torment caused by flame. This man is in such anguish, pain, agony, and discomfort that he doesn't even want his brothers to go to Hell. This rich man has no hope of ever getting out of Hell.

In addition to the physical torment can you imagine the mental torment that he must be experiencing? At least in this life if a person is in physical pain from let's say a terminal disease, they can die and be free from that pain. But this man is already dead. He can never be free from the torment he's experiencing. Have you ever hurt yourself really badly? Remember how much pain you were in? But eventually the pain went away and the injury healed. Maybe all you have is a scar. But you at least have relief from the pain. But this man will never have any relief from his torments. He can never go to sleep, he cannot get a drink of water, he cannot die, he cannot go crazy (yes, that would be a form of relief for him), he can't get any peace where he is not even for one second. He will be in Hell forever...

How long is forever?

Imagine if a slow flying (55mph) pelican could fly through space and land on the sun without dying. Imagine that this special pelican had to empty every beach on earth one grain at a time. The pelican has to pick up one grain of sand in its beak (each beach has a least a billion grains of sand), fly that grain to the sun (93 million miles one way), deposit that single, tiny grain, and fly back to earth (another 93 million miles). Pick up another grain and repeat this process until that one beach is empty.

A solar rocket flying at 36,500mph would take approximately 106 days. So a slow flying pelican would probably take about 192 years (one way, 384 years round trip) for just one grain of sand.

Imagine in your mind (i.e. do the math) how long that would take for this slow flying pelican to empty just one beach.

After this slow flying pelican empties that one beach remember that pelican still has thousands of other beaches to empty one grain at a time 186 million miles round trip for one grain of sand.

Now, I said all of that to say this: the rich man will not have even spent one day in eternity after the pelican empties just one beach (and there's 800,000 beaches on earth each containing a billion grains of sand).

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=521531&pagenumber=8#post14438953

Well, I care about people. For this reason it would be selfish and unloving for me to keep the gospel of salvation found only in Jesus Christ to myself.

I haven't condemned anyone. But I have warned many people about the reality of Hell because I care about people.

No, there's no quota.

Zealot? I'm just a believer in Christ Jesus who cares about people enough to tell them how to receive eternal life.

Self-righteous? Single-minded? Again, I am simply a person who cares about people. There's many people in Hell right now wishing that someone cared enough to tell them about Jesus but didn't. In fact, those in Hell for eternity are so hopeless that they have one--and only one--desire: to tell their families on earth who have a chance to repent from their sins to receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior before they die and end up in Hell forever.

Hell is real and it's torment goes on forever. There is no second chance once you die without Christ in your heart and life.

Below is a true story that Jesus Christ tells about Hell (or Hades):

Luke 16:19-31

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Believe it or not this rich man who died and went to Hell (Hades) is still there in torments. This man still desires for someone to dip the tip of their finger in water and cool his tongue because he is in torment caused by flame. This man is in such anguish, pain, agony, and discomfort that he doesn't even want his brothers to go to Hell. This rich man has no hope of ever getting out of Hell.

In addition to the physical torment can you imagine the mental torment that he must be experiencing? At least in this life if a person is in physical pain from let's say a terminal disease, they can die and be free from that pain. But this man is already dead. He can never be free from the torment he's experiencing. Have you ever hurt yourself really badly? Remember how much pain you were in? But eventually the pain went away and the injury healed. Maybe all you have is a scar. But you at least have relief from the pain. But this man will never have any relief from his torments. He can never go to sleep, he cannot get a drink of water, he cannot die, he cannot go crazy (yes, that would be a form of relief for him), he can't get any peace where he is not even for one second. He will be in Hell forever...

How long is forever?

Imagine if a slow flying (55mph) pelican could fly through space and land on the sun without dying. Imagine that this special pelican had to empty every beach on earth one grain at a time. The pelican has to pick up one grain of sand in its beak (each beach has a least a billion grains of sand), fly that grain to the sun (93 million miles one way), deposit that single, tiny grain, and fly back to earth (another 93 million miles). Pick up another grain and repeat this process until that one beach is empty.

A solar rocket flying at 36,500mph would take approximately 106 days. So a slow flying pelican would probably take about 192 years (one way, 384 years round trip) for just one grain of sand.

Imagine in your mind (i.e. do the math) how long that would take for this slow flying pelican to empty just one beach.

After this slow flying pelican empties that one beach remember that pelican still has thousands of other beaches to empty one grain at a time 186 million miles round trip for one grain of sand.

Now, I said all of that to say this: the rich man will not have even spent one day in eternity after the pelican empties just one beach (and there's 800,000 beaches on earth each containing a billion grains of sand).

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=448058&pagenumber=427#post14420317

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=521531&pagenumber=8#post14438953

Hell is NOT a place you go when you die.

It's a place in Michigan.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's a place in Michigan.

I thought it was south-east of there.

It's also the DMV on a Monday.