Jesus Christ and the Resurrection (what does the evidence reveal?)

Started by JesusIsAlive15 pagesPoll

Could the resurrection of Jesus be true?

Jesus Christ and the Resurrection (what does the evidence reveal?)

Why I Believe in the Resurrection
by Chip Ingram

The answer to these questions begins with one central block, one foundation. If this central block is true, we’re set – if it is false, everything we believe in Christianity is a hoax. That central block is the resurrection.

The validity of our faith is held up by the intellectual feasibility of the resurrection. Put simply, if Christ didn’t die on the cross and come alive again three days later, our faith is worthless. Think I’m being over zealous? Consider what the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:13-14, “But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith is also in vain.”

The writers of scripture say that if the resurrection – the literal physical bodily resurrection of Jesus – isn’t true, Christianity doesn’t hold water. Why I Believe in the Resurrection briefly highlights six reasons why the resurrection is true and ultimately why we can put our faith in Jesus.

One: The Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth is Airtight
Did He really exist? Did that really happen? Or is this like King Arthur? Is it myth, legend, or did Jesus of Nazareth historically live in space and time and walk upon the earth?

The reality of His historicity is airtight. The quality and quantity of the biblical manuscripts as well as first century Greek documents overwhelmingly demonstrate that He actually lived.

The New Testament is built on history. An example of this history stems from Luke 2:2 where we learn that at the time of Jesus’ birth a census was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. In the last 30 years an archeologist has found a coin with the name Quirinius on it placing him as proconsul of Syria from 11 B.C. until after the death of Herod – confirming Luke’s account (Luke 2:1-2).

In the last thirty years archeologists have one after the other, after the other found specific archeological facts validating people in New Testament times. For example, in the gospel of John the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15), the Pool of Siloam (John 9:7), Jacob’s Well (John 4:12) and the Stone Pavement near the Jaffa Gate (John 19:13) have all been located.

Two: The Works of Jesus Went Unchallenged
Stories and miracles; feeding five thousand people, raising people from the dead, lame men walking, blind men seeking, that’s pretty far out stuff, did Jesus really do that?

One of the most important things to note is that Jesus’ miracles were never disputed by his foes. His number one archenemy, the Jewish establishment, never claimed that His miracles ceased to occur. They attested to the feats Jesus had done, however they attributed His power to Satan (Matthew 12:24). Yet, Jesus disputed their claim immediately, saying, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?” (Matthew 12:25-26).

They never questioned the validity they only questioned the source; and Jesus knew how to deal with it. Boy, that’s powerful! He was making outrageous claims and He backed His statements up with miracles – power over nature, unprecedented teaching, divine insights into people, etc. He healed chronic illnesses in mere seconds, such as blindness and leprosy.

Three: The Identity of Jesus Was Confirmed
The third reason I believe that Jesus rose from the dead is the identity of Jesus was confirmed. Not only do we need to ask did He really exist? Did He do those works? But you have to ask, who did He claim to be? Did Jesus think He was God? Yes, He did, and not only did Jesus believe that He was God, but throughout the New Testament others refer to Him as God.

Jesus said, (John 14:6). He also said, “If you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father” (John 14:9). It was clear that Jesus knew who He was and He was absolutely comfortable communicating about His deity to others.

Four: The Death of Jesus Was Undisputed
One of the central arguments used by critics claims that Jesus didn’t die. They argue that He was given special herbs and spices and it only appeared as though He had died or that He had faked His death. Theories such as these are just not possible. In The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel interviews Dr. Alexander Metherell on the evidence behind the crucifixion. The details are gory and, at the same time, remarkable. Much of the following information is taken from that interview.

The night before His death, Jesus stayed up all night praying in the garden of Gethsemane. He was under such stress that a medical abnormality caused by a high degree of psychological stress called, hematidrosis occurred – Jesus sweat blood. Luke 22:44 reads, “And, being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.”

Flogging involves the use of a whip made of rawhide. In the middle of the rawhide are steel-like balls and at the very end of the rawhide are pieces of bone. The Roman executioners would put them on a pole and when flogging they would swing it so it would wrap around the body. The balls would hit and cause major contusions to the organs and then the pieces of bone would cut into the flesh. As it was pulled away it would rip the flesh right off.

Thirty-nine lashes was the legal limit because few individuals ever lived past thirty-nine lashes. Jesus received all thirty-nine and was within an inch of his life when the Roman guards beat Him with their fists.

He’s up all night, He’s within an inch of His life, and then He gets beat up. He’s in such a weakened condition that He can hardly carry the beam of His own cross, and then He was crucified (Matthew 27).

Crucifixion causes a person to die from suffocation rather than pain. As the criminal’s arms were up on the cross the executioners would bend his legs and put a nail between both ankles so that he could push up with his legs and pull himself up, but as he hung his arms would quickly dislocate.

Then tetanus would begin to happen and his arms would start to freeze. The criminal would pull himself up, as his internal organs would begin to slide down. Trying to get a breath compensated the pain of pulling himself up and he would ultimately suffocate.

It has been called historically one of the cruelest forms of torture and death ever devised. If that’s not enough, they didn’t break Jesus’ legs to ensure that He was dead, they instead took a spear and they gashed into His side, and what’s interesting is that it says when they gashed His side water and blood came out (John 19:34).

Five: The Burial of Jesus Was Public and Secured
As the evidence for Jesus’ divinity mounts critics try to disprove as many theories as they can. The two most popular stories critics use to invalidate the resurrection are that the disciples went to the wrong tomb and secondly, that the disciples stole the body.

First, let’s examine the facts. The tomb belonged to Joseph of Arimathea, a member of the Sanhedrin (the High Counsel), who was a dissenting vote on the decision to crucify Jesus. He was a high profile wealthy man whose tomb was prominent; people knew where it was. Foremost, the disciples would not have gone to the wrong tomb, because they were the very ones who wrapped Jesus’ body for burial and placed Him in the tomb (John 19:38-39).

Additionally, guards were placed at this tomb. Roman Guards were put there because the authorities had heard rumblings about Jesus’ teachings and that He claimed He was going to come back from the dead (Matthew 27:63-65). Roman guards knew their job as militia and, if they fell asleep on the job, their lives were at stake. In addition to the guards, the authorities put a seal on the tomb and breaking a Roman seal was an offense punishable by death. This was a very serious, very guarded, ‘follow all the right procedures’, burial and it has been said that, “never had a criminal give so much worry after his execution. Above all, never had a crucified man had the honour of being guarded by a squad of soldiers”.

His burial is convincing beyond a shadow of the doubt; convincing in that the preponderance of the evidence points to the fact that He was dead and that He rose from the dead? See the question is: are there hard facts, hard facts that you could put in any court of law then or now that really prove and demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt, or is this resurrection just wishful thinking? Let’s look at some more evidence.

Six: The Evidence for His Resurrection is Convincing
Old Testament prophets predicted both the resurrection and Jesus’ entire life – it wasn’t new. Hundreds of years prior to these events they were prophesied, predicted if you will. It was predicted that His side would be pierced (Zechariah 12:10, fulfilled John 19:34), His heart broken (Psalms 22:14 fulfilled John 19:34), His bones left unbroken (Psalms 34:20, fulfilled John 19:33) and that He would be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9, fulfilled Matthew 27:45). These are just a few of over 300 Old Testament predictions that Jesus fulfilled.

Not only that but Jesus predicted openly and numerously that He would die on the cross and rise again three days later (Matthew 16:21, Matthew 17:9, Matthew 17:22-23, Matthew 20:18-19, Mark 9:10, John 2:18-22, Luke 9:22-27). It was public, it was known. Jesus made this claim and held onto His intentions.

He also appeared twelve different times to well over five hundred witnesses after He rose from the dead. He appeared to Mary Magdalene (John 20:14), the women returning from the tomb (Matthew 28:9-10), Peter (Luke 24:34), the Emmaus disciples (Luke 24:13-33), the apostles (John 20:26-29), James (1 Corinthians 15:7), and to the group of 500 believers on a Galilean mountain (1 Corinthians 15:6) just to name a few.
Seven: What’s it All Mean?
The resurrection is a historical fact, verifiable in the same manner and by the same means that we verify any other historical fact. There’s as much substantiated evidence and history and confirmation that Jesus is all He said He was, did all He said He did, and rose from the dead, as there is of any man who was president twenty years ago.

The implications of this history are threefold. One, it validates Jesus’ claim; “I am the way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6). Second, it gives absolute hope for the future in that we have freedom here on earth (Romans 6:7-8). Third, Jesus died, He rose again, He is at the right hand of the Father and He has prepared a place for every single person who would look at the evidence and, by faith, receive the gift of eternal life (John 3:16).

John 3:16-17 says, “For God so loved the world,” that means you, “that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”

God’s not down on people, He didn’t send Jesus to point out what a jerk everybody is. He sent Jesus to forgive.

List of Recommended Books:
The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel
The Case for Faith, Lee Strobel
Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Josh McDowell
Jesus Among Other Gods, Ravi Zacharias
Letters From a Skeptic, Gregory A. Boyd
Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis
More Than a Carpenter, Josh McDowell
The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis

Excerpted from Why I Believe, a booklet by Chip Ingram; based on the series Why I Believe.
Used with permission. Copyright 2004 by Chip Ingram. All rights reserved.
About the author: Chip Ingram is President of Walk Thru the Bible in Atlanta, GA, and Teaching Pastor of Living on the Edge, a national radio ministry.

Walk Thru the Bible partners with the local church worldwide to teach God’s Word in relevant ways for lasting life change. To fulfill this mission, Walk Thru the Bible creates and distributes high quality, award-winning resources in a variety of formats, helping individuals “walk thru” the Bible with greater clarity and understanding. Walk Thru the Bible seminars are taught in over 45 languages by more than 50,000 men and women in over 90 countries; Living on the Edge radio ministry broadcasts on more than 800 radio outlets reaching nearly one million listeners a week; and more than 100 million devotionals have been packaged into daily magazines, books and other publications that reach over five million people each year. Walk Thru the Bible was founded in 1976 and is based in Atlanta, GA.
Thursday, March 25, 2004

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Living_on_the_Edge/Article_Archives.asp

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/8/1.html
(click on above link then scroll down for downloadable link entitled, "Hal Lindsey, The Resurrection on Trial

God damnit, I thought we said no more copy/paste threads.

Josephus never mentioned it! Now there certainly could of been a great man named Jesus, but I'm sure a great historian would of devoted some time to the subject of the resurrection.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
God damnit, I thought we said no more copy/paste threads.

Honestly, cant we get a warning or something...and then JIA can make a thread on how we persecute Christians.

instead of complaining, JUST leave the thread alone
especially this one, just let it die quickly....... and then some fool will resurrect it.

The Case for Christ
by Lee Strobel

I was an atheist for most of my life. I thought that the idea of an all powerful, all loving God was just silly. I learned in school that evolution was where life came from, so what do you need God for? And I had a lot of self-motivation for living an atheistic lifestyle. I was living a very immoral life and a drunken life, life that was really a hundred percent focused on journalism.

...(edited for space)

And so she came to me in the fall on 1973 and she said "Lee I've made a big decision. I've become a follower of Jesus Christ." I thought this was the worst possible thing that could happen to our marriage I thought we were gonna get divorced. I felt like I'd married one Leslie and now she's changed into something else. I wasn't ready for that. I didn't want that. And I said look if you can't face life on your own two feet, if you have to out your faith in a book of mythology and bad history and make-believe, then you go ahead and do that, but number one don't give them any of our money, because that's what their after and number two don't try to get me to go because I'm too smart for that.

So I was a really nice guy, but she continued to go and invite me from time to time and I wouldn't go and if was a very stressful time in our marriage. In fact, we are writing a book about it, a how to live with a non-believer kind of book because it was a very stressful. We almost did get divorced, but there was something very attractive at the same time in her life and the changes in her, in her character, and in her values and the way she related to me and the children just intrigued me. So than finally on January 20, 1980 she said "why don't you come with me to church." she said, "you don't have to stay for the whole service, just come and listen to music. you'll like the music." I said "Ok. I'm gonna go." So I come into this church and the music really was in my style. I could enjoy it. I could relate to it. I learned from the lyrics, they used a drama that really captured a slice of my life, like they know what I was thinking and then the pastor got up and did the message called "Basic Christianity" and just explained Christianity. I was twenty-eight years old I had never heard the word grace explained before in my life. I thought grace was something Christians said befo0re a meal. He explained it, I thought that number one- I don't believe it, I'm still an atheist , but number two- if this is true this has huge implications for my life.

So I decide to take my legal training and my journalism training and investigate: is there any credibility to Christianity? I would do what I did at the Chicago Tribune, I would check out stories to see if they were true, if they could be printed in the papers. So I would investigate. I went out and I applied those skills to the question of who is Jesus Christ. I didn't do it what an antagonist attitude I did it with a journalist's attitude I said give me the facts. I'm going to look at both sides, I'm going to look at other world religions and I began to do that. And it was an amazing journey, to look at other faith systems and see the eternal contradictions that to me disqualified them from being true. And yet to see in Christianity, as I looked into the historical evidence for Jesus, as I looked at the reliability of the New Testament, as I looked at the fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies in the New Testament, as I looked at the resurrection very powerful evidence. And I looked at some of the most brilliant legal minds of history- Simon Greenleaf of Harvard, Sir Lionel Luck who, the Guinness Book of World Records, describes as the most successful lawyer in the history of the world, had more murder trials won in a row than any other defense attorney ever. Brilliant people who have applied the laws of evidence to the resurrection accounts and walked away convinced that they are true.

So I did this for almost 2 years of my life looking at evidence inside the bible, outside the bible one of my favorite things- I found 110 facts outside the Bible recorded in ancient history that confirmed, and again these are many things some are higher quality than others, most are somewhat questionable, that form together a very powerful corroborative aspect. One of them, my favorite, is a guy named Thalus, who was a Greek historian in the first century, who wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world in 52AD. So this is right after Jesus life. Thalus was not a believer and Talus' works have actually been lost but in the year 221 a guy named Julius Africanus quotes Thalus, and Thalus had written about the darkness that fell over the Earth during the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Now when I had seen that, I thought don't you think someone other than Mathew, Mark, Luke or John would have noticed this And Thalus not only recorded it but he tried to explain it away, as being an eclipse of the sun. Which, given the timing of the Crucifixion, it could not have been. And I thought Thalus' was a weak historical claim, but the more you investigate Thalus you find that's a very powerful bit of corroborative evidence and its not the only bit- ((Flagan)), there's other references to the darkness outside the Bible. I just had a great time as a journalist investigating all this stuff. On the plus side, journalists respond to evidence, the negative side is I tended to be an observer, I was never a participant, I was the critical observer, I didn't join anything I keep things at arms length. So the idea of making a commitment to God was alien to me and yet the evidence was so powerful that on November 8, 1981 after spending two years of checking this out I just realized that in light of this torrent of evidence that points so powerfully towards Christianity, it would have required more faith to retain my atheism than to become a Christian. Because to maintain my atheism I would have had to defy the evidence, to become a Christian I just had to make a step of faith in the same direction that the evidence was pointing. That's logical, that's rational, and that's what I did.

On that day I repented of my sin, which took quite a while, and gave my life to Christ. I thought maybe my wife would be interested in the fact that I just did this so I thought Id tell her. So I came out and was walking down the hallway and turned into our kitchen and my wife was standing there with our daughter who was almost five and our daughter was standing in front of her reaching up and touching the faucet, for the first time that's how tall she was. And she said, "Daddy, look I can touch it. I can reach it." And I said, "Oh wow you're getting so big." And I gave her a hug and she ran off and I said to my wife, "That's how I feel I feel for a year and nine months I've been reaching out and reaching out and I just touched Jesus Christ. It's real and it's true and I just gave my life to him." She started crying and said, "You hardhearted son of a¼ I've been telling you this for two years." And it had turned out that she had met some women in her church and she told them about her husband who is a hard-hearted, hard-headed journalist that she didn't t have much hope for, and they said well pray this verse Ezekiel 33:23. It says more over, "I will give you a new heart and I'll will put a new spirit within you, I'll remove your heart of stone and I will give you a heart of flesh." and she said, "I've been praying that everyday for two years and God began to answer that prayer as I opened my life to him

http://www.clearthrough.com/experiences/leestrobel.html (full unedited testimony)

Originally posted by fini
instead of complaining, JUST leave the thread alone
especially this one, just let it die quickly....... and then some fool will resurrect it.

Some fool just did. 🙄

I wish the posts were longer......

"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the Sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the Sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the Sun."
—Thomas Paine (Anglo-American revolutionary and writer, 1737-1809).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[B]...(edited for space)

😆

😆 Hooray for Christian apologetics!

Originally posted by Alliance
...(edited for space)

I got to use this more often. 😆

http://www.taroscopes.com/astro-theology/astro-theology3.html#new%20test%20and%20zodiac This is good too Deano.

http://www.taroscopes.com/astro-theology/astro-theology3.html

Re: Jesus Christ and the Resurrection (what does the evidence reveal?)

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
One: The Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth is Airtight

Ahhhh, not really.

The reality of His historicity is airtight. The quality and quantity of the biblical manuscripts as well as first century Greek documents overwhelmingly demonstrate that He actually lived.

Typically historians these days don't base their histories on a single source (like "Biblical manuscripts) - they like corroborative evidence from other sources. To my knowledge the is not an abundance of "Greek Documents" that show he actually lived. In fact that is a sticking point - the fact in an age in love with biography and history and memoir that it is light on detail regarding the "King of the Jews" - considering some of the things that got written about.

The New Testament is built on history. An example of this history stems from Luke 2:2 where we learn that at the time of Jesus’ birth a census was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. In the last 30 years an archeologist has found a coin with the name Quirinius on it placing him as proconsul of Syria from 11 B.C. until after the death of Herod – confirming Luke’s account (Luke 2:1-2).

There is something known as "Historical fiction." And fiction in general. Both pieced make reference, usually, to real life people, places events etc. - Doesn't actually make them real. The fact the Bible mentions real places and people does not actually verify its claims.

In the last thirty years archeologists have one after the other, after the other found specific archeological facts validating people in New Testament times. For example, in the gospel of John the Pool of Bethesda (John 5:1-15), the Pool of Siloam (John 9:7), Jacob’s Well (John 4:12) and the Stone Pavement near the Jaffa Gate (John 19:13) have all been located.

See above. And things like the Walls of Jericho falling - that seems to have happened, but there is not indication it occurred as the Bible claims it did. And where did the Garden of Eden go? And where did all these mysterious old Testament cities disappear to?

Two: The Works of Jesus Went Unchallenged
Stories and miracles; feeding five thousand people, raising people from the dead, lame men walking, blind men seeking, that’s pretty far out stuff, did Jesus really do that?

Wait... when did they go unchallenged? Rational explanation is that they are no more likely to have occurred then the tasks of Heracles, or the things in Ovid's poetry. Jesus may have done something, but if so it has likely been exaggerated by the Bible.

One of the most important things to note is that Jesus’ miracles were never disputed by his foes. His number one archenemy, the Jewish establishment, never claimed that His miracles ceased to occur. They attested to the feats Jesus had done, however they attributed His power to Satan (Matthew 12:24). Yet, Jesus disputed their claim immediately, saying, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?” (Matthew 12:25-26).

Ah, so once again it is the Bible validating the Bible's claims. The Bible says the Jews didn't dispute the miracles. Remember of course he would have lived in a time of myth - were a person could pop down and hear about Zeus and Trojans and the like... did the Jews dispute them?

They never questioned the validity they only questioned the source; and Jesus knew how to deal with it. Boy, that’s powerful! He was making outrageous claims and He backed His statements up with miracles – power over nature, unprecedented teaching, divine insights into people, etc. He healed chronic illnesses in mere seconds, such as blindness and leprosy.

Yes, it was ok for Jesus in the past to make extreme claims and offer extreme proof, but today you claim one is unreasonable for asking for similar. Hypocrisy.

And so on and so on in that vain. What this article is essentially doing is saying "The Bible said Jesus rose from the dead. The Bible can be trusted as it refers to things we know exist. Now let me talk about crucification. If crucification was real then obviously the Bible is telling the truth."

If Jesus Christ truly suffered that much, then I am sorry for his suffering, as I would be sorry for anyone's suffering be it that intense.

I know what it's like to have my shoulder dislocate, it is EXCRUCIATINGLY painful, and crucifixion DOES cause your shoulders to dislocate.....

However, Jesus Christ's suffering in no way compensates for the pain that every single human being throughout history has suffered...

If you pile on the pain of what everyone in the Holocaust suffered, pile on the pain of every single person who lost loved ones, who has been tortured by war, disease, etc....

The pain will be much more intense than that of any crucifixion. Sorry Jesus....you suffered yes, but do not minimize the suffering everyone else goes through by claiming that your suffering was greater....

And also...it is said that Jesus died to save us from our own evil, but I look around and see that not that many people are actually "evil"....yes, there are lot of people who are cruel, nasty, prejudice, sadistic, etc.

But many people do not fall under this category, so for Jesus to say he is saving me from "my own" evil is absurd, since I do not consider myself "evil"...am I flawed? Hellz yeah im flawed, and i make mistakes all the time, but i am not evil, as many people are NOT evil....

I do not beleive that Good people, people who are filled with love, empathy, kindness, and compassion, need Christ to erase thier "evils" as they are fully capable of erasing thier own evils.

Re: Jesus Christ and the Resurrection (what does the evidence reveal?)

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[b]One: The Historicity of Jesus of Nazareth is Airtight[/B]

If by airtight you mean air.

Ok, now I'm gonna open up a can of worms. Secularly speaking there is strong evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. We know that there were Christians at Pella at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. Josephus mentions him twice. Most historians think that later scribes embellished his comments there, but the root is likely authentic. True most of the extra biblical evidence is second or third hand (Christian writings from the second and third century, Pliny the younger, etc).

No, you could argue the historicity of the acts described in the Gospels, but you're on shaky ground arguing his existence.

Urizen,

As far as Christ's suffering goes, Crucifixion was pretty much the worst form of torture ever created. And if that was all that He suffered he could definitely empathize with with all the pains you listed. Thing is, in Christian belief the crucifixion was the least of the pain Jesus endured. The real pain came from taking on Himself the punishment for all the sins in the world, past, present, and future. In Mormon belief we even believe he took upon himself all the other pains and infirmities of everyone who will ever have lived. In other words, he know intimately every pain you mentioned. He doesn't downplay others pain, He empathizes perfectly.

Originally posted by docb77
Urizen,

As far as Christ's suffering goes, Crucifixion was pretty much the worst form of torture ever created. And if that was all that He suffered he could definitely empathize with with all the pains you listed. Thing is, in Christian belief the crucifixion was the least of the pain Jesus endured. The real pain came from taking on Himself the punishment for all the sins in the world, past, present, and future. In Mormon belief we even believe he took upon himself all the other pains and infirmities of everyone who will ever have lived. In other words, he know intimately every pain you mentioned. He doesn't downplay others pain, He empathizes perfectly.

Crucification was a highly unpleasant form of execution, but I don't believe the claim it is the "worst form of torture" ever created. It perverse notoriety is a product of the Bible and why people see it so.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Crucification was a highly unpleasant form of execution, but I don't believe the claim it is the "worst form of torture" ever created. It perverse notoriety is a product of the Bible and why people see it so.

What would you say was the worst form of torture? The rack?

JesusIsAlive, you seem to think without God we have no Morals, I am more Moral than 90% of the Religous people I know, yet I have none, why do you keep insisting that?