He is not the multiverse itself, but rather is the abstract personification of all energy within that multiverse. There is a clear distinction. If it was just a multiverse laid bear, then it would be cakewalk for anti-monitor to go eating universes, but that's not what multi-Eternity is about. Think of it as the multiverse's avatar.
Ok, I've been doing some research into the whole COIE ordeal, and I've come to the conclusion that there's NO WAY, AM could win this fight. You see, as it turns out AM DIDN'T have the power of a near multi-verse. What he had was the power of a SINGLE large universe. Need proof? OK take a look...
See, when one of the positive matter universes were destroyed, the anti matter universe expanded. AM didn't get all the power of the destroyed universe, his own universes power just increased. And that's what he got, the power of the Anti Matter Universe. He even says it himself, check it out...
So he has the power of 53 million worlds, with more that 2 million of them containing life. Now I'm pretty sure that Marvel has never released an exact number on the population of the multi-verse, but given that there's an infinite number of universes within it, I feel safe in saying that there are more worlds(inhabited, and uninhabited) within Marvel's multi-verse, than there is within the anti matter universe. And what does that mean? Well that means that ME has MORE power to draw from, and is therefore more powerful.
(Now to all of those that are arguing for AM absorbing Multi Eternity, I would just like to point out that he NEVER demonstrated the ability to absorb a standard universe, only an anti matter universe. Matter and anti matter cancel each other out, so if he HAD tried to absorb one of the standard universes, it would have probably destroyed him. So he WON'T be absorbing any part of ME.)
Now as for the big show down at the dawn of time, I want you to take a look at something...
Well look what AM says in the first and second panels. He used his energy to breach the Wall of Creation, and NEEDED the life energy of DC's heroes to complete the next step. So apparently, the power he absorbed, wasn't even enough to complete his plan. So even if AM got the chance to go back in time to try to destroy ME, he wouldn't have the power to do it when he got there.
Now for those of you who are bound to point out that it took the Spectre to stop AM, well I have come up with 2 possible answers as to why that was necessary.
1. At the time, the Spectre simply wasn't as powerful at the time as he is now.
2. (And this is the one I believe) It was the single BIGGEST PIS showing in comic book history. Need proof of that? Well look...
Now think about that. The Spectre is backed by God, but for some reason he needs the power of some sorcerers to turn the tide? The way I figure it, DC needed someone that was more powerful than all the heroes put together for the big climactic showdown.But Kismet(DC's Eternity) hadn't been introduced yet. So who did DC have that fit that description? Spectre.
Looking at all this, I think it's safe to say, that Multi-Eternity wins this fight without to much trouble.
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Last edited by darthgoober on Oct 6th, 2006 at 11:26 AM
The numbers given don't fit with the idea of the DC multiverse, nor the story of the Crisis.
The multiverse is infinite, it says so inside of the Crisis, multiple times.
"In the beginning, there were many, a multiversal infinitude." - a direct narration from the comic.
When Pariah was explaining how he destroyed his own creation, and how he was the greatest scientist in his universe, he unleashed Anti-Matter and destroyed his own universe--- And the Anti-Matter Universe FILLED THE VOID. Basically assimilated.
By the end of the Crisis story, Anti-Monitor's Universe had expanded across the entire multiverse -- except the last 5 which were moved into the netherverse by Anti-Monitor's opposite... the Monitor. [And each Universe is infinitely expanding, not mentioned in the Crisis, but in many comics, Pre and Post CoIE.]
It's completely contrary to the very idea of infinitely stretching universes, and the infinitely duplicated multiverse. lol, @DC multiverse being a handful of lightyears across.
But if DC's creation can stop the Anti-Monitor, so can Marvel's. It's pretty simple in that equation.
__________________
I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot
Last edited by Juntai on Oct 6th, 2006 at 12:59 PM
First of all, let me say thanks for the props everyone.
Second of all, everyone who's a big DC fan, should get ready to HATE me(if you don't already), because I've discovered something that's going to PISS you off. However it will also explain how the Anti Matter Universe, was able to expand and become more powerful, while retaining it's original size(which I already covered in my last post). Just remember, I didn't come up with this stuff, I'm only pointing it out.
Now we'll start with the beginnings of the DC Multiverse(I've included the first two pages of it's origin for anybody who doesn't know it, but the important stuff doesn't start until the third scan)...
Now the reason I say that the third scan is more important, is because it shows the universes overlapping to a degree, without actually interacting. Why you ask? Because the universes that made up the DC multi-verse, weren't laid out side by side, they were kind of stacked within the same space, and were separated by vibrational wavelengths that kept them from actually interacting with each other. This is first mentioned on the first page of the first book...
See at the bottom it says that the universes were vibrating and replicating. Now I would also like to bring your attention to the part(in the same narration box), that says "what should have been one became many", because that's about to be important.
So what does all this talk about the universe fracturing and the resulting universes being separated by vibrations have to do with anything? Well I'll get to that after I show you these scans, which point out something important about the multi-verses origin...
This is from the first book. Look at what it says in the upper right hand panel. "The universe once divided into many parts...Each one different, independent, yet somehow WEAKER than the whole". What does this mean exactly? Well to put it bluntly, it means that even though DC at the time was a multiverse, it was a weak multiverse that only contained as much power as a single universe. And before anyone tries to call BS on the fact, here's the Monitor saying the same thing in the forth book...
"The universe was split apart at the dawn of time...each part WEAKER than the whole it was meant to be". He also says that the universes are separated by by vibrations and time.
When all of this is taken into account, here are my theories on the matter...
About AM's power increasing with the destruction of the positive matter universes... Well his universe obviously didn't grow outward and actually become larger(because of the dimensions given for it and because of the impossibility of an infinite number of universes being placed side by side). It would be more accurate to say that it grew in DENSITY(it's the best word I could think of to describe it). It became more real, and more like the ORIGINAL universe in overall power.
This also means(and THIS is what's really going to piss some people off), that even at the height of his power, AM wasn't even as powerful as a SINGLE intact universe(because there were still 5 universes left out to complete the whole). So not only could he not take Multi Eternity, he probably couldn't take the universal aspect of Eternity either. His power falls just shy(5 mini universes to be exact).
Before everyone starts attacking me as a "DC hater", let me just say that I've spent the past three days going over all this stuff, but there IS a chance I missed something. So if anyone has any evidence which goes against all this, feel free to bring it to the table, and I'll address it. Also, I have no idea, on how powerful DC's universe is NOW. All this stuff relates only to the power of DC during COIE. I'm not saying that Marvel's universe is STILL more powerful.
I don't have time to break all this down this morning, as I won't be on but for a couple more minutes, but you dismissed one thing.
-- the Marvel multiverse is also seperated by vibrational frequencies. Reed and several other characters have made note of it. Even Reed's from different realities.
In fact, the very IDEA of a multiverse is that they are seperated by vibrational frequencies, even the ones in Quantum Mechanics- which most things in comics are based on.
I'm surprised Mr Master didn't point that out, but rather patted you on the back.
"The universe was split apart at the dawn of time...each part WEAKER than the whole it was meant to be".
Taking that, you take is as each universe being weaker than a standard universe, I take as the DCU having the a multiverse collapsed together [the way it should be by the story] into a single universe stronger than any other. We don't know the paramaters of the 'weak multiverse' or the 'stronger whole universe', or whatever. So that's all unsuported jargon. The multiverse was perfectly stable. It was a clear-cut multiverse.
The theory on the density is good though, but unsupported as well.
__________________
I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot
Last edited by Juntai on Oct 7th, 2006 at 12:38 PM
I never said that Marvel's wasn't separated the same way. It would have to be. Because you can't have two things of infinite size existing BESIDE each other without them interacting. I was just pointing all that out to erase any doubt about the Anti Matter universe growing in terms of actual size. It wouldn't do that, because the void it expanded to fill, wouldn't be beside it. The multiverse is basically the same size as a universe(at least in overall dimensions), only it's layered by vibrational frequencies. That's why I compaired it to density.
Well the DC multiverse was obviously stable, as made evident the fact that it was doing just fine until AM started messing with it. The problem is that Marvel(at least to my knowledge), has never stated anything like the whole "weaker than the whole" thing, so until they do, saying that Marvels multiverse is weaker than it would be, is even more unsupported than the theory I posted.
I already said that density was just the best word I could think of to describe it. But the theory that the Anti Matter Universe actually grew in size, is not only unsupported, it's outright contradicted on panel. Which means that my way DOES make more sense(and ISN'T contradicted on panel). So I'll stick with my way of describing it.
Now if you(or anyone else), can come up with an instance of Marvel saying that the universes which make up the multiverse are weaker than they were meant to be, I'll accept that. But I'm not going to assume that it is, just to keep to the theory that the two multiverses were equal in strength.
Now I would like to point out that just about EVERYTHING discussed on this board is actually speculation. Saying that Ion beats Wolverine in a fight 10/10, is in fact speculation, because they've never fought(and don't get me wrong, he would). But that's what we do around here. We look at the evidence we're provided, and come to whatever conclusions seem to make sense. DC at the time had had stated that it's universes were weaker than they were meant to be, but(to my knowledge) Marvel never said anything like that, so assuming that the "whole" universe DC was talking about had as much power as the entire Marvel mutiverse, seems like a bit of a stretch.
Also, please remember that I'm only talking about the DC multiverse AT THE TIME. I don't know the conditions of the current DC multiverse, or how it was formed exactly(studying up on that will be my next project), so it may very well be just as powerful as the Marvel Multiverse NOW.
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Last edited by darthgoober on Oct 7th, 2006 at 02:39 PM
Right, but what I'm saying is that there's really no way to benchmark the Marvel Multiverse and the DC Multiverse, only that they are both multiverses. DC's multiverse is weaker than the DCUniverse it was meant to be, but it can't really be said that the Marvel Multiverse is stronger than DC's multiverse, there's no way to support that, nor the other way - and I didn't suggest otherwise.
I think it's just plain clearer, that if the DC multiverse can stop Anti-Monitor, than so can Marvel.
__________________
I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot
Last edited by Juntai on Oct 7th, 2006 at 02:43 PM
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