Originally posted by Tshern
Okay, that's the simplified version, but anyways. I knew I could count on you Mr. Master! I concur, Wanda wins.
Originally posted by MightyEInherjar
Gotta go with Mr. Master on this, as I suppose I consider him an "expert" on cosmic related fights (plus he has scans to back him up).
😄
My Debate does NOT include the Writers, but Pre-Retcon Beyonder and his FEATS On Panel vs the Chaos Wave.
What?
Where'd you get that from?The Beyond Realm was the Beyonder, without the Beyonder there is NOTHING there.
Yea, Millions of times greater than ONE Multi-verse, while TOAA created an INFINITE number of Multi-verses and ALL of them are INFINITE.
Omni-verse - all universes.
Not all multi-verses. as you said.
There isnt a specific spheare for each a multi-verse.
The things you see in you're "Marvel the end" copy is that each of the bigger spheares are universes, the middle and the small is as well.
Example for big universes (blue) : 616-universe
Example for meduium (green) : Richards's universe.
Example for small (pink/red) : Atzela's universe.
Now how many times does Thanos w/ Heart confirm that he destroyed a universe.
look at the begining of the first issue.
Thanos states that he destroyed a "universe".
And a universe is the same as "all reality" (see it's in singular, not plural, if it would be more than one it would be; "all realities"😉
Thanos later after he destroyed all that was (one universe)
All that is (Eternity) -- Past tense, all that was.
So how did a "universal" creature defeat an manifastation body of the Living Tribunal, Kurvac was also "unversal" and went agaisnt the judgment of the Living Tribunal, and he coudlent do squat.
Infinity Gauntlet affecting the Multi-verse?
Pfft. -- Magus created himself a universe. And from there he controlled the 616- and his own universe. Those two are the only once.
The Nullifier vs the Gauntlet.
Read carefully where Magus battles Quasar, Doom ect.
Quasar says: If I miss I might just flush the "universe" down the tube.
Still just a universe.
Back then the Nullifier wasent Multi-versal.
I would never consider a company Cross-Over in a debate.
And like I said, Marvel is Infinitely bigger than a Multi-verse Now.
By saying the Multi-verse you can mean the Omniverse.
Again:
Omni-verse: All realties
Multi-verse: "More than one" reality
Uni-verse: One reality
[Directly translated]
It's like apples in a tree.
Let's say there are 40 apples there.
uni-apple means one apple
Multi-apple means 2-40 apples
Omni-apple means 40 apples.
My point was addressing your comment about Beyonder shattering the Timestream, so every character I mentioned can shatter Time on ALL Levels.
Wanda Re-Wrote Universal Time every time she Remade Eternity.The UN can Re-Write Multi-versal Time.
Captain Britain with Excalibur and the Amulet of Right, can Re-Write Omni-versal Time.
Maybe so, but he was ONLY able to Absorb ONE Multi-verse, and he was NOT able to REACH OUT any further
Calling the Supreme Being (TOAA) the Writer was MY Own SPECULATION, I have NO real idea WHO GOD was speaking to on the Phone in the FF issue.
That's not the way I debate.
So you don't agree with the wrtiers being above?
I clearly said the BEYONDERS.Which are NOT incomplete or complete Cubes.
LT, Eternity, Lord Chaos & Master Order observe two specific creations of the Beyonders.
Living Tribunal calls the Beyonders, "the INFINITE"
"Minute bits of of their Energy" from the Beyonders, created Post-retcon Molecule Man & Post-retcon Beyonder.
The Beyonders, with a TINY Bit of their Energy, empower Cosmic Containment Units that can MAKE you a Universe, make you God, give you the Power to collapse a Multi-verse.
Can they remove time itself, stop the creation from ever being made.
Not exactly, it wasn't ALL in his imagination, some Feats were but not all.
His Level of Power during the Ret-con was complete control of a Universe smaller than Eternity.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So you're simply going to ignore that statement ?What?
Ofcourse I'm going to ignore that statement, that's not the basis for an argument,
"he had the power of the Writers and thats that." See how silly that sounds.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I was more thinking about the fact that he was the total sum of that realm, but your persepctive is a good one as well.
It's not my perspective, its a Marvel Fact.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Let me try and make it clear for you:
[B]Multi-verse - a unstated couple of universes.
It must be more than one, but it can end up without limits. [/B]
Let me now make it clear for you.
The Multi-verse is INFINITE: Period.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Omni-verse - all universes.
Not all multi-verses. as you said.
The Omni-verse is ALL Universes which equals to ALL Multi-verses.
Point out to me where you saw a Marvel Multi-verse that did not belong to the Omni-verse.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
There isnt a specific spheare for each a multi-verse.
Each Blue Ball is a Multi-verse.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The things you see in you're "Marvel the end" copy is that each of the bigger spheares are universes, the middle and the small is as well.
Example for big universes (blue) : 616-universe
Example for meduium (green) : Richards's universe.
Example for small (pink/red) : Atzela's universe.
When Warlock first exited the Multi-verse, he entered a place called the Cosmic Vortex.
In it, an INFINITE number of MULTI-VERSES are spiralling upward, while below lies Oblivion, (the ultimate Abstract in terms of everlasting), swallowing Multi-verses that collapse, are nullified, have a weakened Anchor (like Atleza) ect...
These are MULTI-VERSES!
When I realized that Thanos DID in fact, Absorb MORE than just a UNIVERSE, that he actually absorbed ALL he could (which is the MULTI-VERSE)
He absorbs Eternity and Infinity and there is still Space and star stuff behind
This is not a designed attack, he's saying it himself "it's Out of Control"
Like a raging drunk, who's not selective in a brawl, anything in the way goes, and with that KIND of Power, that means everything goes. (like it did)
Here it continues,
"For IF this BAND (LT, Eternity/Infinity) Could Defy Me...might not OTHERS* be equally Foolish?"
"Could I ALLOW ANY to question my divine Authority?"
"NO....So I CONTINUED to Absorb ALL that MIGHT Threaten my Reign...Until....
See...He's absorbing MORE SPACE now, where is this SPACE coming from if he already absorbed ALL of Space and Time?
I'll answer that,
It has to be coming from the Multi-verse, there is no other way to look at it.
*(That's WHO these OTHERS are that MIGHT be equally foolish, the rest of Space, in other words, the MULTI-VERSE)
WHO else COULD question his authority, except anyone left in the MULTI-VERSE.
CAN'T be the Universe, he just ABSORBED the Universe (Eternity/Infinity remember)
Now your saying to yourself, fine, that conclusively despicts Thanos absorbing the Multi-verse.
But Mr M showed scans of the Cosmic Vortex, where an INFINITE number of Multi-verses are,
How could Thanos have absorbed ALL he could, when he ONLY absorbed ONE Multi-verse?
Now we go back to the OMNIVERSAL structure:
The OMNI-VERSE and the rest of the Multi-verses rest with in the Cosmic Vortex.
See those little Purple Balls, thats where Atleza is (the Cosmic Anchor of the "616" Multi-verse)...
and every little Purple Ball is the Domain of an Anchor of a Multi-verse ...
Each Domain is Outside the Multiverse...Untouched by Space or Time....
The much bigger Blue Balls represent EACH a Multi-verse, and the SUM of the Blue Balls is the Omni-verse.
Anything Outside the Blue Balls is Untouched by Space & Time,
which Multi-Eternity/Infinity encompass.
See how the Blue Balls (Multi-verses) are separate from each other, and how the little Purple Balls (the Anchor's domain) are separated from the Blue Balls.
This is why Atleza, Gamora and Warlock were untouched, they were there, in A little Purple Ball, (the Anchors domain, Outside it's respective Multi-verse)
This why Thanos could not absorb more, he absorbed everything within that Blue Ball (a Multi-verse) and evidently, he could not reach any furthur
"Nothing Remained"
Remember he was "Out of Control"
He kept on absorbing till there was nothing left for him to absorb (literally), HAD he been able to absorb everything Outside his Multi-verse, it would have been no problem with TOAA's power,
But Thanos was NOT able to do it, meaning that's as FAR as TOAA permitted his power to be used, absorption of a Multi-verse and Remaking that same Multi-verse, even though being the most powerful being in the Omni-verse.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Now how many times does Thanos w/ Heart confirm that he destroyed a universe.
look at the begining of the first issue.
Thanos states that he destroyed a "universe".
And a universe is the same as "all reality" (see it's in singular, not plural, if it would be more than one it would be; "all realities"😉
Thanos later after he destroyed all that was (one universe)
All that is (Eternity) -- Past tense, all that was.
This is why you should read the whole story in depth, so you won't end up confused like now. The Story line defines what Thanos had absorbed, as I explained above.
Example:
Roma Oversees the 616 Multi-verse personally,
Roma says Understanding the Universe is hard enough, but she tends to Eternity
"Within it, ALL that ever was, ever is or ever will be exists"
Roma just called the Multi-verse, Eternity, Not Multi-Eternity and yet we know for a fact that she is the Multiversal Guardian.
"Roma she inherited the reins of the Multi-verse"
the title Multi-Eternity is not used much, we have to discern which Reality they're referring to according to the Story line.
ps. I have no idea what's "Richard's universe" (what are you talking about?)
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So how did a "universal" creature defeat an manifastation body of the Living Tribunal,
Thanos had the power of TOAA and Thanos absorbed a Multi-verse and LT with this power.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Kurvac was also "unversal" and went agaisnt the judgment of the Living Tribunal, and he coudlent do squat.
Yea, back in 1982 in a WHAT IF no less, when LT was only allowed to use Super Novas.
"he couldn't do squat" you say,
funny I recall LT disconnecting that Universe from the rest of the Multi-verse and Korvac "couldn't do squat" about that either.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Infinity Gauntlet affecting the Multi-verse?
Pfft. -- Magus created himself a universe. And from there he controlled the 616- and his own universe. Those two are the only once.
Yea, and it was an INCOMPLETE IG, meaning NOTHING in comparison with a Complete Infinity Gauntlet.
Thanos only wanted to give Death ONE Universe with the IG, and Warlock was a Multiversal threat with the IG, or else LT would not have judged against him.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The Nullifier vs the Gauntlet.
Read carefully where Magus battles Quasar, Doom ect.Quasar says: If I miss I might just flush the "universe" down the tube.
Still just a universe.Back then the Nullifier wasent Multi-versal.
Says who? You?
The UN, even while it was popularly known as a Universal destroyer has been used to erase ONE individual.
It can affect ONE person, a Galaxy, a Universe or a Multi-verse.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Both Marvel and DC agreed to make it like that.
The supreme being is a sum of the Multi-verse.
Thats been ret-conned and I don't debate Company Cross-overs.
In any case the Supreme being is the sum total of the Omni-verse (ALL the Multi-verses in Marvel)
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The Omniverse don't cosists of Multi-verses (well you can see it like that) it cosists of uni-verses.
The Omni-verse is EVERY possible Alternate Reality = EVERY Universe = EVERY Multi-verse
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
By saying the Multi-verse you can mean the Omniverse.
The Omni-verse = an INFINITE number of Multi-verses.
So its obviously not the same thing.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Again:
Omni-verse: All realties
Multi-verse: "More than one" reality
Uni-verse: One reality
According to Marvel, the Omni-verse is an Infinity of Multi-verses and each Multi-verse is Infinite too.
The Omni-verse is within the Cosmic Vortex, and thats Infinite aswell.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yes he would cause the eradication of all the Multi-verse.
All the universes.
All time-lines.
Just like Captain Britain can do.
Captain Britain is the one that keeps the Omniversal Timestream in Order.
Omniversal Timestream = ALL Timelines in Marvel.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Wanda rewrote one reality.
Wanda rewrote the 616 Universe and the Chaos Wave she produced was collapsing the Omni-verse.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The Nullifier rewrote a Multi-verse. - 2-infinity universes.
The Multi-verse has an INFINTIE number of Universes.
Read the Multi-Eternity Scan.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He stated a couple of times that he just absorbed one universe.
If you would be so kind as to point out to me when Thanos specifically said,
"I absorbed ONE Universe"
Thanos calls it the Universe, but by the same token Thanos calls it an ACTUALITY, which ALWAYS stands for Multi-verse.
"You & Gamora were OUTSIDE this Reality, tending Atleza, this Actuality's Cosmic Anchor"
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So you don't agree with the wrtiers being above?
I only debate with On Panel evidence as the backbone of claims.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Can they remove time itself, stop the creation from ever being made.
Dude, anyone who can Remake Eternity has control over time, for Eternity is the personification of TIME.
There are different levels of Time ofcourse:
Universal Time
Multiversal Time
Omniversal Time
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How was the Chaos Wave stopped? And what exactly is it ?Damn..something that can ACTUALLY pose a thread to classic Beyonder...wieerddddddd
It was never really stopped, more like contained.
And I'm not entirely sure about this but, I think TOAA was involved.
Captain Britain says, "the Cosmos is healing itself" and they were dealing with a Breach on an Omniversal Scale.
To Stop the Chaos Wave,
Meggan had to harness the Power of the Beyonders, as she entered the RIFT (Inside the opening in the Wall of Omniversal Causality)
"I can Harness the Powers of the BEYOND"
First Meggan draws energy from both Earth and Otherworld, to enter the Rift, because though the Chaos Wave has not reached the Breach just yet, there's already an incredible force pushing its way through.
Once inside the Rift, with all the Power of the Beyond, her job was to hold the Chaos Wave for as long as she could while Captain Britain and Betsy Braddock (his Sister) close the Breach and Rachel Summers seals it from the Outside.
Meggan enters the Rift, and Harnesses the Power of the Beyond fully.
""Only She can claim the Pan-Dimensional Power of the Beyond for her own"
"Knows that by her side, ALL things are possible"
"Until He sees what she's up against"
Meggan (with the Power of the Beyonders) manages to Hold the Chaos Wave for a short while.
Captain Britain, and Betsy hold the Breach together while Rachel seals it
The Chaos Wave finally hits the Breach, but the seal holds.
Actually the Omni-verse kicks into action and seals the Breach completely
"the Cosmos is Healing itself before our very eyes"
somtimes I wonder how my fellow comic heads come up with the awnsers they do. how in any form or fashion was Wanda anywhere as powerful as classic Beyonder ? her power was planetary at best. her sphere of influence was contained to earth(lings) . Beyonder beats abstract beings with ease. where's the comparisions ? a lot of
Wanda's feast were accompinaied (sp?) with a extreme amount of hyperboyle.
Originally posted by complexbrother
somtimes I wonder how my fellow comic heads come up with the awnsers they do.
By reading Comics.
Originally posted by complexbrother
how in any form or fashion was Wanda anywhere as powerful as classic Beyonder ?
With control of the Chaos Wave, she's more powerful.
Originally posted by complexbrother
her power was planetary at best. her sphere of influence was contained to earth(lings) . Beyonder beats abstract beings with ease. where's the comparisions ? a lot of
Wanda's feast were accompinaied (sp?) with a extreme amount of hyperboyle.
Wanda Re-Creating the 616 Reality
NEXT PANEL
the Universe, the Past, Present and Future has been REMADE
AGAIN
"Her ability to altar probability got Super charged"
"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again" (more than once she did it)
"You might not even exist anymore in whatever New Reality takes its place"
"Who knows how she'll change Everything this time"
continues in the next post...
Originally posted by complexbrother
somtimes I wonder how my fellow comic heads come up with the awnsers they do. how in any form or fashion was Wanda anywhere as powerful as classic Beyonder ? her power was planetary at best. her sphere of influence was contained to earth(lings) . Beyonder beats abstract beings with ease. where's the comparisions ? a lot of
Wanda's feast were accompinaied (sp?) with a extreme amount of hyperboyle.
I've been reading comics for over 30 years and maby some of my brethren see somthing in these comics that I just don't, won't, or can't see.
the images you just showed me of wanda doing her presto chango thing, it is not universal in scope, it has affected the tiny blue speck we live on, but most def' not the whole galixy, universe, or multiverse .
multiversal is what Thanos did in the Infinity Gauntlet, or what the Anti Monitor did in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Originally posted by complexbrother
the images you just showed me of wanda doing her presto chango thing, it is not universal in scope, it has affected the tiny blue speck we live on, but most def' not the whole galixy, universe, or multiverse .multiversal is what Thanos did in the Infinity Gauntlet, or what the Anti Monitor did in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Wanda even accelerated Genis-Vell's powers to Insane Genis levels, and even Beyond that, (like cracking Time and Space in Two)
With his Cosmic Awareness he knew something was wrong with the UNIVERSE, but he couldn't figure it out.
Genis begins Blinking The Universe IN and OUT of existence (This is Beyond his scope, only when he was INSANE did he destroy Eternity)
"For one second, EVERYTHING Collapsed, and Expanded, like an Accordian"
"Private Vell has become a Spacial Conduit"
"We must find him soon, OR...
"OR this entire Universe might Disappear in the Blink of an Eye"
Genis ends up splitting Time and Space in Two
Genis blinks the Universe In and Out once more
Finally Genis allows himself to be shut down by using a "Bioagent" that Slows Down his Metabolic rate to the point of Catatonia.
But like you said, if your just Not going to see it, enjoy how pretty they are atleast.
Originally posted by celestialdemon
So being the judge of "ALL the Multi-verses" makes him Omniversal, doesn't it? If his power is omniversal in scope and even he feared pre-retconned Beyonder, what does that make the Beyonder?
demon, if you look at my super thread, you'l notice I rank Beyonder second only to TOAA and THOU
The Chaos Wave was not even mentioned in my Hierarchy, I don't think Marvel will allow Wanda to control such power.
