Why Does Odysseus listen to the sirens?(Jack related)

Why does Odysseus decide to listen to the Sirens, in The Odyssey, by Homer?

Why did humans fly to the moon? Why did the chicken really cross the street? Curiosity.

Odysseus is a self-assured guy who lives by his wiles as well as his courage. He's an intellectual; and although he is self-disciplined, his curiosity sometimes gets him into trouble.

Odysseus is also willing to pay a price for knowledge. It is this intellectual curiosity that drives him to hear the Sirens' song despite the pain he must endure while being tied up to the mast of his ship. If it weren't for those excruciating straps, he would have been lured to his death.

So what was so enticing about the Sirens' song? They promised gifts of wisdom and knowledge of the future. Who could resist that?

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What did Jack learn from dear Lizzie doing that to him?

Had he gone with her and not been tied up..would he ever be able to get her in the future? No he would have probably remained pretty cowardly etc.

Odysseus needed to embrace the feminine after years and years of treating women badly and in a very masculine based world..he needed to be forced to stay with Calypso for 7 almost as if he was in a coma or a trance he was in denial of adventure it was a hibernation of his character (whish IMO is the jack we see in movie 1 and much of movie 2) We see Jack very cowardly and weak in the movie compared to what he has been KNOWN for in the past, his bravery etc..the "hero" is there waiting to burst fourth..and the only way that can happen is when he surrenders to the female inside himself and he begins to yearn for Penelope and embrace the feminine he wants the very most, he needs to embrace her in its most positive way if he is to return to the brave man he once was. But he comes out of it better off towards women ha!..Odysseus is also swallowed by the waves and reborn and he then shows a great dignity to the female..He's learned how to treat them with honor.

Sorry I know Ikeep bringing up Odyssey/PotC similarities but Odysseus and jack are so similar.

No thats good.....keep it up lovelyone...it makes total sense....if he had never been tied to the mast by her....they would have never kissed...therefore he would have never died...therefore she would have never noticed how empty she was inside with out him....therefore she would have never set out on the quest to retrieve him from Worlds End b/c she realized how much he means to her...and in there also making Will realize that their relationship isnt perfect!

Penelope is obviously Liz IMO

Penelope:

The trait of endurance that marks Odysseus is mirrored in his wife Penelope, who is unwilling either to reject or to accept marriage. The former choice would endanger her son's life and property(she knows what happened to Norrie when she rejected him), while the latter would end her hope of reunion with her husband(ending up with Jack look at sig) It is for this loyalty to her husband's memory that she is praised in comparison to Clytemnestra's infidelity. Like her husband, Penelope is also seen as clever. She is able to trick the suitors and delay a decision of marriage by carefully knitting Laertes' shroud by day and removing the stitches at night. Since the shroud is never finished, she is able to postpone a decision about matrimony.

Penelope does not allow herself to sink into black despair at the thought of Odysseus' misfortune. She rises from her inertia when the time comes for action and decision. She appears before the suitors and announces that she will marry the one who can string Odysseus' bow and send the arrow through the twelve axes. Her primary purpose is to try and get rid of the suitors and to buy time, for she knows that none of them can pass the test.

While her suffering does chasten her out of superficial optimism, it does not, however, sink her into an incapacitating melancholy. Though she doubts the beggar's prediction about Odysseus' homecoming, she acts upon it, declaring her intention of marrying the man who can string Odysseus' bow. This expresses her inspired compromise between doubt and hope, between her memory of Odysseus' old command and her faith in today's signs. Her thoughts and dreams each night oscillate between duty and desire, and she neglects neither.

Penelope is not just heroic, beautiful, chaste, and commanding; she is also human and sometimes filled with doubt. She loves her son and is anxious for his safety. It is for his sake, in fact, that she even thinks of remarrying. (signature) She is also doubtful, especially about Odysseus' return. Even after he reveals himself to her, Penelope wants proof, which he provides in knowing about the olive tree bed.

In characterizing Penelope, Homer gives up his normal device of describing characters through their setting. As with Achilles, Homer penetrates her mind. The mystery of her girl-like laughs, her impulsive appearances before the suitors, her beautifying sleep, and her wish to die speak of her complete inwardness, which is seen even through the last scene. In this respect, she offers a striking contrast to Odysseus, whose responses are conveyed through his setting and through what he sees around him. Homer also paints Penelope at a higher level than most of his female characters, who are described as shallow and unfaithful.

After just reading The Odyssey, it's so great to analyze Penelope. She's actually a very clever woman, well-matched for Odysseus. She doesn't have a lot of resources, but uses what she has to outwit and to test people. She's kind of like Liz in that respect. Liz doesn't have a lot of resources as a woman during that time period, but she uses what she has and matures her skills.
She also tries (sometimes fails, but tries) to be moral in a very immoral enviornment. Think of the strength of will Penelope had to have to keep hoping for Odysseus to come back. I think they draw a lot of parallels to The Odyssey.

yes..and I honestly think she sees Will as a son almost..one who is not matured..and the thing about telemacus? He actually tells his mother to leave him so he can be brave and do the "right thing" with his father...so he can become a man without her pestering him trying to protect him all the time...Penelope doesn't have faith in him to be brave or strong enough..but he does become a man

I'm starting to get the feeling now that Liz may be a siren to Jack..something he learns from but wont be tempted by in the long run...I hope thts not the case though 🙁..because Imo She is now penelope to him..the driving force who sends Odysseus home even Davy/Posiedon cant stop him because of this whole embracing the feminine side thing and yearning to be there for Penelope

I'm also getting the feeling that Tia almost has Athena (mentor) qualities to her..despite being Calypso/Circe the witch

There is also Hecate, an actual goddess of witchcraft and the original goddess of the night before Artemis kind of took that over. It kind of makes me think she's got an underground cult somewhere, lol.

The strangest thing is in my English class we are reading the Odyssey
and just yesterday i read to like page 10 and i read the part about calypso letting Odysseus go home , and the sea was trying to stop him as hard as it possibly could. I was going to post a topic just like this Lil but wasent able to get on last night. But thanks lovely for the comparison to the odyssey , now when I'm reading it i will be think of jack/Liz the entire time!

I'm wondering if that letting Odysseus go home is linked in with Tia/Calypso letting Jack be engulfed by the Kraken, she knew he was going to die and she let him...cuz Odysseus gets engulfed by the waves and Poseidon's fury (Davy's Kraken) as soon as he leaves Calypso's island.:

Now Odysseus is ready, having discovered a manhood which can confront the inner and outer waters, to face the full wrath of Poseidon's waves. Only now can he fully surrender to the sea, to the vast and powerful feminine, and be reborn.

Only then does he arrive in the land of the Phaeaicans, naked as a newborn, but able to now suppress and gain command over the sexuality which so recently dominated his existence - as he covers his private parts with a leaf. For now he meets the feminine in a virgin, youthful form. Nausicaa is an expression of his own virgin and developing anima. He treats her with dignity, grace, self-control and respect. And in honoring her, he also honors himself.

.for Jack..I think he did have a relationship with Calypso..he left her and he was still having meaningless sex with wenches everywhere and when we see him in movie 2 he's entered the stage of active longing for Penelope(Elizabeth) he's becoming sick of embracing masculinity in its most primal form..I honestly believe the Jack we see in movie 1/ early 2 is the Jack that would rather run away from adventure than embrace it..being with Calypso forced him to be like that..it forced him to be weak..it was a stage of hibernation for him..that is not the TRUE Jack..the true Jack is braver than that.

It's really hard to explain.

I really do think that Calypso has let Jack go in that respect..she knows he wants Penelope(Elizabeth) and there is no way she can have him now because once Odysseyus started to long for penelope..not even Immortality from Calypso could tempt him..IMO Tia/Calypso has let him go..and her attention is now drawn to Will lol she knows he's gonna be immortal in the future.

Here is what my copy of the Odyssey says about Odysseus, tell me how much this reflects Jack? I know Jack is supposed to be an enigma someone who you cant pin point..but think we can if we just look at Odysseus..IMO they have based Jack on him:

Odysseus the hero with 1000 disguises

There have been 3 common responses to the hero of the Odyssey. First he is the loyal hero-husband, who's eyes are fixed on one goal only: To return home. What ever his trials, tribulations and temptations, everything is subsumed to this ultimate imperative. Second. He is the eternal wanderer, fired with a passion for knowledge and experience, and intellect, He is often quoted to be intelligent and quick of wit. Third he is an anti-hero. A mean, selfish time server, who employs disguise and deceit to gain the most disreputable ends.

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the most important thing? His driving force? his ARC = Penelope.

so IMO Jack's is Elizabeth

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Penelope? Is this true of Elizabeth, Jack and Will in some ways?

Penelope is a woman in conflict should she stay(true to Odysseus)? Or should she remarry? With Telemacus who is the master of this house, with her servants and with her suitors?. The constant pressure under which she lives has the effect of turning her into a woman who hangs grimly onto the past. She finds solace and comfort only in the world of sleep and dreams, though even these can be painful to her. She clutches at every straw of hope (although she denies it) and fluctuates between hope that Odysseus will return and absolute certainty that he will not. Her loyalty to Odysseus remains constant even up to the moment where she agrees to remarry.

Again IMO she is married to Jack in her heart and always will be. My sig:

"a lady, widowed before her marriage. A virgin too, likely as not, searching for her husband lost at sea"
You cant even be called a widow before marriage unless you were married and lost a husband before hand. Look at the start and end of DMC..her true husband is Jack. who like Odysseus is constantly lost at sea to her lol

I agree with all the parallels between POTC and the Odyssey, but I don't see any evidence that Tia/Calypso isn't "over" Jack. She seems very friendly with him and unthreatened by him, but she doesn't seem bitter or trying to lead him into a trap either. She seems more taken with Will and although she may know what Jack's getting at when he wants her to tell the story of Davy Jones, she does it for Will's benefit. So I don't see the relationship between them as quite the same as Calypso and Odysseus. She was ready to settle down and take Odysseus for a husband and only let him go when the gods said she had to.

"I thought I knew you" - Jack "not as well as I'd hoped" - Tia

secondly Calypso knows Odysseus wont accept immortality because by the end of the 7 years of trance/hibernaton of character (forced to embrace a weaker side of himself/feminine side) he finally goes into active longing for penelope so Calypso lets him go because there is no hope now of him deciding to become immortal..its no longer his driving force..whats most important to him now is Penelope

IMO Tia knows Jack is now at this stage of active longing when it comes to Elizabeth, when she asks him about the compass and she knows its pointing at Elizabeth.

Calypso lets Osysseus go and he's only now ready to confront the vast feminine that is the sea..due to posiedons rage he is swallowed by it and reborn again ..he's now the brave man he once was but about 10 times as better because he finally has a balance within himself male and female yin and yang blah blah lol

Jack is ready to go back to Elizabeth and be with her in doing so he confronts Davy's rage: the Kraken the sea, the vast feminine..he's gonna be reborn and be the same as oddy^...I mean come on Jack allowed himself to be swallowed by a giant....you know what

Tia knows he's gonna die like this and she lets him

you know what?

I can assure you we are not going to see a sexually forward Elizabeth in movie 3 at all. That part has gone. Thats not what Elizabeth's character is going to be about in movie 3..not at all.

"Now Odysseus is ready, having discovered a manhood which can confront the inner and outer waters, to face the full wrath of Poseidon's waves. Only now can he fully surrender to the sea, to the vast and powerful feminine, and be reborn. (kraken looking like a giant you know what...Posiedon/Davy..Jacks gonna come back and be READY for elizabeth)

Only then does he arrive in the land of the Phaeaicans, naked as a newborn, but able to now suppress and gain command over the sexuality which so recently dominated his existence - as he covers his private parts with a leaf. For now he meets the feminine in a virgin, youthful form. Nausicaa is an expression of his own virgin and developing anima. He treats her with dignity, grace, self-control and respect. And in honoring her, he also honors himself."

This is what Elizabeth will probably start resemble in movie 3..and Jack will be well suited to handle her in the right way^

Nausicaa very much wants him..but she is afraid to let people see this. She is stunned by how well behaved he is around her etc etc..

Also She's still penelope 😛

Have to remember that to the hero in many stories..the woman they claim at step 9 (reward) is a SHAPE SHIFTER meaning they change in maturity, characteristics, emotional levels etc ALL the time..and the male actually understands it better once he has claimed her.

"9) THE HERO SEIZES THE SWORD.

Having survived death, beaten the dragon, slain the Minotaur, the
hero now takes possession of the treasure he's come seeking.
Sometimes it's a special weapon like a magic sword, or it may be a
token like the Grail or some elixir which can heal the wounded land.

Sometimes the "sword" is knowledge and experience that leads to
greater understanding and a reconciliation with hostile forces.

The hero may settle a conflict with his father or with his shadowy
nemesis. In RETURN OF THE JEDI, Luke is reconciled with both, as he
discovers that the dying Darth Vader is his father, and not such a
bad guy after all.

The hero may also be reconciled with a woman. Often she is the
treasure he's come to win or rescue, and there is often a love scene
or sacred marriage at this point. Women in these stories (or men if
the hero is female) tend to be SHAPE-SHIFTERS. They appear to
change in form or age, reflecting the confusing and constantly
changing aspects of the opposite sex as seen from the hero's point
of view. The hero's supreme ordeal may grant him a better
understanding of women, leading to a reconciliation with the
opposite sex."

coming back for Elizabeth helped Jack in 2 ways..

1. he learns that being brave for the woman he loves is whats gonna help him face hostile forces in the future...and we see this happen when the Kraken comes back...Jack showed a remarkable bravery there and confidence..Its whats gonna help him survive in the new world

2. He reconciles himself with the opposite sex...he learns how to handle them better in the future. He will know how to behave around Elizabeth and he will "return home with her"..well he should lol

I can also see Elizabeth not understanding Jack proplerly until she has reached step 9 too and claimed him...Its not happened yet.

Jack is very much a shape shifter to her too..he changes every second almost lol

Brilliant, keep it up. I always thought that Elizabeth didn't love Will at all, just the idea of him being a pirate goes against everything that she was forced into in her life and he represented something dirty and free for her. But then she met a REAL pirate, Jack, and she fell inlove with him. But she's deniing herself him, cause she feels dirty and wrong, but so right...

I agree that Liz won't be trying to seduce Jack any time soon. She bit off a little more than she could chew. She'll demure a little bit and it will be up to him to make her feel confident about being a pirate again.

LovelyOne, I still don't think Tia's been longing for Jack or wanting him to be an immortal with her. It goes against her independent nature, and she seems to be more amused by Jack than wanting him for a lover. In fact, she kind of blatantly says he wasn't much of a lover in her eyes. No man is probably good enough for her.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I agree that Liz won't be trying to seduce Jack any time soon. She bit off a little more than she could chew. She'll demure a little bit and it will be up to him to make her feel confident about being a pirate again.

LovelyOne, I still don't think Tia's been longing for Jack or wanting him to be an immortal with her. It goes against her independent nature, and she seems to be more amused by Jack than wanting him for a lover. In fact, she kind of blatantly says he wasn't much of a lover in her eyes. No man is probably good enough for her.

She has. Remember Naomi said their characters were once lovers..they were allowed to make up the back story . Her and Johnny that is.

Also in movie 3 we are supposed to find out that Jack was with her and its one reason why Davy hates Jack so much.

I think she used to long for him but now that he wants Elizabeth she would have given up. Why did they make it so she found out he wanted Elizabeth? I think she has let him go now. She seemed so happy to see him then her attention moves to Will because she knows he will become immortal in the future. Where as Jack now longs for another woman and this time its serious. He wont give up on her...(IMO Jack never really had the same feelings for Calypso/Tia that she had for him)

I never got that out of that scene. I thought they were just casual sex-buddies that left on a good note together, you know? Like no hard feelings either way. She's happy to see him but she shows no disappointment when he says he's come for information. It's out of character for him to want something other than the thing that will save his neck, so she does look slightly surprised there, but not disappointed. She kind of laughs about it. "Jack Sparrow does not know what he wants...or maybe he do and he loathe to claim it for his own." She's laughing there like, "Oh Jack, you've never REALLY wanted anything before."
Her flirtations seem more directed at Will.

we learn about the back story in 3 I think. I think she was in love with him but Jack wasnt with her..

same as Odysseus and Calypso in the Odyssey

I think the jack we see in movie 1/early 2 is because he's still very much in that "no active adventure" phase after spending time with Calypso

Its not to a tee here..its just what Jack's going through emotionally when it becomes similar to the Odyssey..and its strange how he and Tia/Calypso were once "lovers"

the Jack we see is still in this trance/hibernation of character and when we meet him in movie 2? Its the active longing stage for Elizabeth...he wants more in his life from a woman..not just the primal urge/the mothers protection..

I think Tia has been protecting him a lot since he met her. he had been very lucky for a long time..but it wasn't always like that..he has been through many scrapes in the past whilst he was still a pirate. scars and all. Now he in Johnny's words "is a man who can miraculously run between the raindrops"..i don't see this in DMC.well we do until he bumps into tia again and she realises he's in love with elizabeth..after that his luck runs out..she's given up on him I think because Jack now loves Elizabeth and there is no turning back on that.. Now she helps him gain Elizabeth instead. which is what Calypso does for Odysseus once Odysseus enters the active longing stage for penelope on the 7th year

also 13th year as a pirate..luck is about to run out but 13 can also bring luck and this is Elizabeth. Jack now knows that protecting the woman he loves is all that is important to him now..this will keep him brave in the dangerous new world that is coming along.

Penelope is what makes Odysseus strong again, strong enough to leave the cocoon of safety and basic primal urges towards the female. (which is what Jack appeared to only have towards the females in his life INCLUDING tia)