So because of this we conclude that the statement has no meaning whatsoever?
Well credit must be given to the statement, but no as much as you seem to think.
No. Yoda himself stated what he said was the truth. You can not just say he was "flattering him" when it is even mentioned by Yoda that he WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.
Yoda was clearly not being 100% truthful, whatever reason doesn't matter, it's clear unless you really want to argue that Yoda honestly believed Ki-Adi-Mundi to be more powerful than himself and Mace Windu.
I would not say that quote makes Ki-Adi above Mace or Yoda but I do believe it puts him VERY closely behind. Above Plo Koon at least.
The statement is clearly not 100% correct, therefor you can't solely use it to place Ki-Adi on any power hierarchy whatsoever; I mean who are you to dictate who was included in that statement and who wasn't.
NOW, because you seem to be in Plo Koon's favor, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE HELL MAKES HIM BETTER THAN KI-ADI-MUNDI???
Well Plo has a lot going for him.
He was a member of a jedi dynasty (much like Ulic Quel-Droma), noted to be strong in the force. His arsenal of force powers that he can use in a battle is incredible - electric judgement, altering the temperature, freezing liquid into ice, conjuring and manipulating dust particles etc. He also wore talons over his fingertips to augment his control over the force. KI only has access to the basic powers of a jedi.
He was also able to telepathically contact his niece, Sha Koon from halfway across the galaxy during the Stark Hyperspace War, pretty incredible when you consider the distance. During the Yinchorri Uprising, he was able to manipulate huge dust particles and create illusions out of these dust particles (to confuse his enemies) as well as mask his party's presence with them. When a huge crowd of about 30 protesters entered the jedi temple to cause havoc, Plo was able to mind control all of them at once to leave the temple. He has also displayed such mastery, and sensitivity to the force by using TK to lift heavy boulders without even looking at them, and without the need to guide them with his hands.
He is also considered as one of the more martial jedi of the order, a huge fan of 'aggressive negotiations' whereas Ki is known as more of a diplomat. Plo was also the hero of the Stark Hyperspace War, and kicked a lot of ass in the battle. He was stated to be the best practitioner of Shien that Jinn had ever seen, Maul respected him as a warrior above the likes of Anoon Bondara (the chief lightsaber instructor before TPM, he was stated by his padawan to be the best pure swordsman she had ever seen, and Obi-Wan also views him on par with the like of Qui-Gon and Mace in that regard) and on par with the likes of Mace Windu. He was also factually stated to be a master of Teras Kasi.
Mundi has lots of things going against him too, being pwned by Grievous, being pwned by clones whereas Plo was undefeated in personal combat as far as we know. Mundi was also stated to have impaired coordination, which would certainly hinder his dueling abilities.
Now don't get me wrong, Mundi is petty powerful, however Plo has more going for him, and therefor wins by default.
Originally posted by Dessel
He is also considered as one of the more martial jedi of the order, a huge fan of 'aggressive negotiations' whereas Ki is known as more of a diplomat.
And what point are you making? Yoda is not known for his martial abilities or duelling strength. He is well known and well respected for his wisdom, yet he would still kick anyones ass in a duel. So whatever point you were trying to make fails.
Obi-Wan also views him on par with the like of Qui-Gon and Mace in that regard) and on par with the likes of Mace Windu. He was also factually stated to be a master of Teras Kasi.
What? So if Obi-Wan states that Plo Koon is on par with Mace then that can be seen as a large factor in this debate (at least you are making it out to be or you wouldnt have posted it). Yet when Yoda says that Ki-Adi is the only jedi who can defeat Sharad Hett you pass it off as if it is nothing. Double standards anyone?
Mundi has lots of things going against him too, being pwned by Grievous
Lol, that means absolutley nothing. You conveniently seem to forget that Mundi was exhausted, and GG had the element of suprise. Im quite sure that if Plo had been put in the same situation he would have lost also.
being pwned by clones
If I recall, Ki-Adi actually put up a fight and even managed to pick off some of the squadron of troopers who attacked him. Plo Koon was easily shot out of the sky by one of the two fighters behind him. I highlight the numbers so that you understand that Ki-Adi had more people to have to kill to stay alive.
Now don't get me wrong, Mundi is petty powerful, however Plo has more going for him, and therefor wins by default.
Lol. Plo wins by default you say. That must be the biggest load of bullsh*t ive heard. I could say that Count Dooku has 50+ years more fighting experience than ROTS Anakin so he will win by default. Doesnt work like that im afraid.
Although I really dont know who will win in the fight. I would like to say Mundi because he is one of my fav characters, but Plo has alot going for him. It wont be close by any means methinks, and personally I think some of your logic is a bit off.
And what point are you making? Yoda is not known for his martial abilities or duelling strength. He is well known and well respected for his wisdom, yet he would still kick anyones ass in a duel. So whatever point you were trying to make fails.
Yoda is an exception, the point doesn't fail. Logic dictates that a more martial jedi would favour combat and dedicate himself to combat over a diplomatic jedi, I'm not saying that this fact alone gives Koon the win, just that credit needs to be given to it.
What? So if Obi-Wan states that Plo Koon is on par with Mace then that can be seen as a large factor in this debate (at least you are making it out to be or you wouldnt have posted it).
I'm not saying it's a large factor, just making as many valid points for Koon as I can.
Yet when Yoda says that Ki-Adi is the only jedi who can defeat Sharad Hett you pass it off as if it is nothing. Double standards anyone?
Wrong!! The statement about Mundi can be proven to be factually incorrect, whereas the one about Maul goes. And if you didn't notice, I did say that credit has to be given to the one about Mundi as well, just that Medvock couldn't dictate who was included in the statement and who was not to suit his argument.
Lol, that means absolutley nothing. You conveniently seem to forget that Mundi was exhausted, and GG had the element of suprise. Im quite sure that if Plo had been put in the same situation he would have lost also.
Mundi got pwned badly, it goes against him. I doubt Plo would put up as pathetic an attempt at taking him, I mean Mundi couldn't even accurately force push him lol.
If I recall, Ki-Adi actually put up a fight and even managed to pick off some of the squadron of troopers who attacked him. Plo Koon was easily shot out of the sky by one of the two fighters behind him. I highlight the numbers so that you understand that Ki-Adi had more people to have to kill to stay alive.
Logical fallacy. Ki was in a situation that tested his personal combat abilities, Plo wasn't.
Lol. Plo wins by default you say. That must be the biggest load of bullsh*t ive heard.
Well that's what usually happens when nothing can be proven, but one combatant has more going for him than the other.
I could say that Count Dooku has 50+ years more fighting experience than ROTS Anakin so he will win by default. Doesnt work like that im afraid.
Strawman argument. How about you learn how to debate before unsuccessfully attempting to point out flaws in my logic.
Although I really dont know who will win in the fight. I would like to say Mundi because he is one of my fav characters, but Plo has alot going for him. It wont be close by any means methinks, and personally I think some of your logic is a bit off.
😆 How about you successfully point out one illogical thing in my entire post, because your post is full of fallacies.
Originally posted by Dessel
Yoda is an exception, the point doesn't fail. Logic dictates that a more martial jedi would favour combat and dedicate himself to combat over a diplomatic jedi, I'm not saying that this fact alone gives Koon the win, just that credit needs to be given to it.
Why the hell is Yoda an exception? Who makes him an exception - oh wait, im guessing its you and your false logic. Because one is known for his wisdom, does not dictate that he is a bad fighter. But whatever, I just dont see how this point proves in anyway that Plo id the better fighter.
Wrong!! The statement about Mundi can be proven to be factually incorrect, whereas the one about Maul goes.
I presume you mean Mace, not Maul. We all know that Plo Koon is not as good as Mace windu. So the comment would be 'factually incorrect' as you like to put it. So again, the statement in no way means that Plo is better. Unless you want to accept that Ki-Adi was in fact the only jedi who could face off against Sharad Hett.
Mundi got pwned badly, it goes against him. I doubt Plo would put up as pathetic an attempt at taking him, I mean Mundi couldn't even accurately force push him lol.
What 'you doubt' and what would actually happen are two different things. Plo Koon would not beat Greivous. Certainly not CW GG and certainly not when he was as fatigued as Mundi was. Use a bit of commen sense please.
Logical fallacy. Ki was in a situation that tested his personal combat abilities, Plo wasn't.
Mundi was outnumbered about 8 to 1. He was in the middle of the battlefield and trusted the clones to do as they were told. He was then caught by suprise and shot down - but did manage to take several with him. I dont see how this could possibly count against him. Besides, fighting clones and fighting another force user and two different things. Point moot.
Strawman argument. How about you learn how to debate before unsuccessfully attempting to point out flaws in my logic.
Strawman argument? Lol, I was providing an example on how your faulty logic doesnt work. But whatever, I really dont care about this debate. Keep arguing those points if you wish, but I personally dont see how they make Plo better.
Why the hell is Yoda an exception? Who makes him an exception - oh wait, im guessing its you and your false logic. Because one is known for his wisdom, does not dictate that he is a bad fighter. But whatever, I just dont see how this point proves in anyway that Plo is the better fighter.
You always misconstrue people's arguments? Logic dictates that people who dedicate themselves to combat and personal power would in most cases be more powerful than those who dedicate themselves to diplomacy. Yoda is the exception because of how undedicated he is to personal power, yet he was still the most powerful person in his era. How are you not getting this point yet? Martial jedi would logically be more powerful than diplomatic jedi, no matter how many exceptions there are, it can still be used in a debate. Just because Yoda was known for his wisdom moreso than his power, the point remains, to deny it displays a clear misunderstanding.
I presume you mean Mace, not Maul.
I meant Plo actually.
We all know that Plo Koon is not as good as Mace windu. So the comment would be 'factually incorrect' as you like to put it.
TPM Mace? Care to prove it? And the statement doesn't actually state that he's as strong as Mace, just in his league which is most probably correct given the time period.
So again, the statement in no way means that Plo is better.
It's a point in his favour you idiot, I didn't say it automatically puts him above Mundi.
Unless you want to accept that Ki-Adi was in fact the only jedi who could face off against Sharad Hett.
No, this is incorrect, the other one isn't.
What 'you doubt' and what would actually happen are two different things.
You clearly don't understand debate. When nothing can be proven, and you have to put as many points as possible in the favour of each argument, whatever argument has more going for it wins by default. Now Mundi losing to Grievous badly, and attempting to force push him, but missing, coupled with Plo being unbeaten as far as we know, and the possibility that he wouldn't do as badly against Grievous (this is where doubt on my part becomes valid) leans the argument in Plo's favour. Remember, opinions can be used in debates to a degree.
Plo Koon would not beat Greivous. Certainly not CW GG and certainly not when he was as fatigued as Mundi was. Use a bit of commen sense please.
Why not? His electric judgement would certainly help, probably hold him off well enough for another jedi to defeat him, and that's if it doesn't in fact kill him.
Mundi was outnumbered about 8 to 1. He was in the middle of the battlefield and trusted the clones to do as they were told. He was then caught by suprise and shot down - but did manage to take several with him.
1. Mundi wasn't caught by surprise.
2. Many jedi did much better than him, there was certainly room for improvement on Mundi's part.
3. How can you not see that the fact that Plo remains unbeaten in personal combat as far as we know whereas Mundi has been beaten in personal combat twice is a point in Koon's favour? This is how debate works when we know so little of each opponent.
Besides, fighting clones and fighting another force user and two different things. Point moot.
Erm no. Defending against blasterfire tests how well one handles a saber, their reflexes etc., all relevant to a lightsaber duel between force users. Point unmooted.
Strawman argument? Lol, I was providing an example on how your faulty logic doesnt work. But whatever, I really dont care about this debate. Keep arguing those points if you wish, but I personally dont see how they make Plo better.
You twisted my argument around to something it wasn't, and then made it seem like you defeated my point. That's a strawman.
Sorry mate, im not going to argue. This debate doesnt have Dooku so I dont really care. 😛 . I just think that some of you Plo supporters points are irrelevant. You are trying to say that Mundi is at a disadvantage because he got shot down by clones and that because Mundi is a diplomat his saber skills are automatically below Koons. That is pure speculation.
You always misconstrue people's arguments? Logic dictates that people who dedicate themselves to combat and personal power would in most cases be more powerful than those who dedicate themselves to diplomacy. Yoda is the exception because of how undedicated he is to personal power, yet he was still the most powerful person in his era. How are you not getting this point yet? Martial jedi would logically be more powerful than diplomatic jedi, no matter how many exceptions there are, it can still be used in a debate. Just because Yoda was known for his wisdom moreso than his power, the point remains, to deny it displays a clear misunderstanding.
Obi-Wan also preferred Diplomacy, but he was still one of the greatest Swordsmen in the order.
In fact, I don’t really see any proof that Jedi who prefer more “aggressive negotiations” are any better than Jedi who prefer Diplomacy. Yoda has proven this is not the case, as well as Obi-Wan. There is no proof to suggest Plo was better than any other Jedi solely because he was more martial.
Ki-Adi-Mundi, however, has been stated by Master Yoda (the Grand Jedi Master, mind you) to be the ONLY Jedi with the skills to defeat sharaad hett. The fact alone that this is coming from Yoda, and not just any Jedi, makes it very significant. Now, I’m not arguing that this quote puts Ki above either Mace or Yoda, but I do believe it puts him well above Plo.
And where does it say Ki-Adi-Mundi preferred Diplomacy anyway?
TPM Mace? Care to prove it? And the statement doesn't actually state that he's as strong as Mace, just in his league which is most probably correct given the time period.
Maul admired Plo and Mace more than the other Jedi, so? How does that make Plo any better?
No, this is incorrect, the other one isn't.
What? You mean the Maul quote is correct but the YODA one isn’t? HAH! If Maul was indeed stating the best Jedi of that time he would have stated Yoda. FACT. Again, just because Maul admired Plo more than the other Jedi doesn’t make him better. Yoda actually states that Ki-Adi was the only Jedi with the skills to defeat sharaad Hett, and then adds “the truth only, I speak” after Ki-Adi replies “you flatter me, Master Yoda”. It is obvious Yoda didn’t say that with intentions of flattering him. He was stating the TRUTH, like he ALWAYS DOES. How can you argue with something Yoda himself stated?
You clearly don't understand debate. When nothing can be proven, and you have to put as many points as possible in the favour of each argument, whatever argument has more going for it wins by default. Now Mundi losing to Grievous badly, and attempting to force push him, but missing, coupled with Plo being unbeaten as far as we know, and the possibility that he wouldn't do as badly against Grievous (this is where doubt on my part becomes valid) leans the argument in Plo's favour. Remember, opinions can be used in debates to a degree.
Ki-Adi-Mundi knew no other master besides Yoda. He was trained by the Jedi Master from a very, very early age. Now, why would Yoda train Ki individually? Could it be perhaps that HE thought Ki to have more potential than any other Jedi, and hence deserved individual training? Whatever the reason, the fact that he was trained by the Grand Jedi Master himself could contribute as to the reason why he is undoubtedly one of the best of the order.
He also trained a handful of Jedi, including A’sharaad Hett, another Cerean Jedi and even Anakin Skywalker for a period of time in the Clone Wars.
And to prove he wasn’t physically weak by any means, he even defeated a bunch of thugs during a mission on his home planet with nothing but his bare hands. If it means anything, he was also quite muscular in his youth.
Not to mention Yoda stating Ki as the ONLY Jedi with the skills to defeat one of the most powerful Jedi of the order, and the fact that he was promoted to the Jedi council while still only a Jedi knight.
On Wookieepedia, it is mentioned that he was noted by other Jedi for his “exceptional bravery” as well.
Plo being unbeaten as far as we know,
I assume this doesn’t count the time he, as well as Ki-Adi and Aayla Secura attempted to destroy the Droid Control ship and FAILED.
Why not? His electric judgement would certainly help, probably hold him off well enough for another jedi to defeat him, and that's if it doesn't in fact kill him.
According to you, not even Ki-Adi’s force push could hit Grievous. Who’s to say Plo would have any better luck?
And we all know lightsabers can block lightning. There is absolutely no reason to assume Ki won’t be able to block Plo’s.
Mundi wasn't caught by surprise.
Erm… yes, he was. He turned around, saw the troopers aim their blasters at him and then fire immediately. How can that not be considered a surprise?
2. Many jedi did much better than him, there was certainly room for improvement on Mundi's part.
Many Jedi eh? Too bad Plo wasn’t one of them.
3. How can you not see that the fact that Plo remains unbeaten in personal combat as far as we know whereas Mundi has been beaten in personal combat twice is a point in Koon's favour? This is how debate works when we know so little of each opponent.
Okay, because Ki has known defeat it makes him worse than Plo? No. In fact, I’d argue that defeat would only make Ki a wiser Jedi.
And Plo has failed once. Read above.
Erm no. Defending against blasterfire tests how well one handles a saber, their reflexes etc., all relevant to a lightsaber duel between force users. Point unmooted.
Ki-Adi was able to block several bolts of the blaster fire and even manage to direct them back at the Elite troopers. This, mind you, only after momentarily witnessing his troopers aim their blasters at him. Ki-Adi-Mundi was surprised at the time, which would certainly have been a disadvantage.
Now, remember the fact that they were all ELITE Clone Troopers and were ALL blasting Ki at the same time. I doubt ANY Jedi could have been able to withstand all that blaster fire.
Plo Koon and Ki-Adi-Mundi are equal in my opinion.
Plo Koon is said to be a powerful Form V master, a superior hand-to-hand combatant, and he can manipulate his surrounding environment.
Ki-Adi-Mundi is said to have mastered Makashi (I personally think he uses Niman), he held his own against General Grievous, and he led some of the tougher campaigns (like Ossus, New Bornalex, and Mygeeto).
Ki-Adi-Mundi has experience, but Koon has power.
when i see the movie i think ki adi was hit from behind by the droids and thats why he died seriously i think thats how he died, he was not having a prob deflecting the attacks from the droids, i think that was the thing with the troops defeating these guys there where cought off gaurd, and the element of suprise was not with them. but anyway so what koon got hit down its not like other masters where not killed with out even suspecting, neither was he he had to turn around the troops relented they first got into shooting position. I dont know who is the stronger though.