Originally posted by wuTa
Yea ok, Yao is more "dominant" than Shaq. Yao's 0 rings, and 1 trip to the playoffs(which he lost to Shaq btw) is far more dominant than Shaqs 4 rings and numerous trips to postseasons. "Dominant" players don't make excuses and blame other players which is exactly what your doing for Yao. Those underacheivers in Miami have a ring because of a dominant player, which is why people can say that player is "dominant"", albeit its was Wade instead of Shaq, but Shaq did the same thing in Olrando and LA. Just because Yao averages 25 pts and 12 rpg don't make him dominant. So, I guess Yao is a better Center than Bill Russell at this point in Yao's career. Give me a break. As of right now theres only one dominant center in the league right now, and its Duncan, maybe Yao will get there in the future, hell he might even get there this year, but he still needs to take one more step before he deserves that title.
But Yao's a lot younger than Shaq. You can't compare how many rings they have. Before Shaq got his first ring in LA, you would still consider him as a dominant center, wouldn't you?
Yea I would, but thats because Shaq brought his team to numerous playoffs, including a trip to the finals while elevating his teammates play, remember how good Penny Hardaway was with Shaq? Yea, he wasnt as good w/o Shaq, that wasnt a quocidence. And you just said what I've been sayin all along, its too early to call Yao Dominant. He hasn't proven to earn that title as of yet.
Actually, there hasn't been, not because of Yao atleast, not yet. Penny is a player who Shaq elevated to superstar status. Houston had to bring in a superstar for Yao. Other players Shaq improved were more role players but had there games elevated nontheless. Rick Foxx, Kareem Rush, Robert Horry, and even Kobe all benfited from Shaq and were part of the Lakers titles runs because of Shaqs Dominance. Same could be said about Penny, Skiles, and Nick Anderson in Orlando. Just like the same could be said about Grant, Paxson, Kucoc, and even Pippen with Jordan.
Shaq may have helped Kobe a little, but Kobe plays better without him. And all the other guys you mentioned are nowhere near superstar level. You also can't say Shaq elavated Penny. Penny shined and Shaq helped him.
You could make an argument for Steve Francis and Jim Jackson, but nonetheless, nobody takes the credit for elavating someone else into a superstar. A superstar elavates himself with help from others.
Dude, what the hell are you babbling about. It sounds like you keep contradicting yourself. Penny shiny by himself but Shaq helped him. Yea, helped him elevate his game to superstar status, because w/o Shaq, Penny didnt have nearly the success he had with him. Thats a fact. I'm starting to think you don't know what the term "dominant" means. So what if those guys aren't superstar level, thats not the point. The part is Shaq elevated there games and carried them to championship rings, and championship games, thus Shaq=Dominant. Yao can't even do that with a Superstar teammate. Jim Jackson a superstar? Please tell me your joking, and Steve France was(notice i sad "was"馃槈 a superstar in Houston long before Yao ever showed up there.
I never said Jim Jackson was a superstar, but I said you could (key word COULD) make the case that Yao helped him and Francis because once Yao got a lot more attention in the post, they got more open looks. How am I contradicting myself? I said that you shouldn't say Shaq elevated Penny. Did you misunderstand me? Seems like you did, because when you say Shaq elevated him, you're basically giving the majority of the credit to Shaq for Penny's success. That's not right. I said Shaq helped him (helped him and elevated him are 2 different terms, at least in my book). I also didn't say Penny shined by himself. I tried to say that he should get the credit for his success. It's like saying Yao is doing very well, mainly because T-mac is elevating him into a superstar. Yeah, it doesn't sound right.
I think your definition of "dominant" is different from mine. You're basically saying that you have to win rings and get to the finals often in order to be dominant. That's not my definition of being dominant. I think if you average a double-double (at least 20 and 10) and you're a force that opponents have to always be wary of from the outside, the inside, and the FT line (not Shaq), you should be considered dominant. Whether underachievers decide to slack off or not, they should not interfere with Yao's consideration for dominance.
BTW, "Penny shiny by himself." Dude, I don't have OCD and I've tried to ignore it so far, but your grammar and spelling is getting to the point where it's hard to understand what you're saying. Please pay more close attention.
I'll start paying more attention to my grammer, when you start paying more attention to your idiocracy. Like I said, Francis was a superstar before Yao was around, and Jackson play with the Kings showed he could play w/o Yao.. You "could" say Yao elevated Franci's and Jackson's game. You "could" also say Kwame Brown deserved to be a number 1 drat pick, but only someone with below baskteball intelligence would say such things. So, I guess by your definition Yao is a more dominant Center than Bill Russell, Shaq, Walt Champerlain, and Kareem Abdul Jabeer. Hell, lets put Patrick Ewing on that list too because he had a better jump shot, could post up and could shoot from the line for good percentage.
I'm just nearly stating a fact when I say Penny was at his best when he played with Shaq. Yea, having championship rings and gettin to the finals does prove your greatness(i.e "dominant"馃槈. Micheal Jordan, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Shaq. Bill Russell. What do all these players have in common? They dominated there competition from top to bottom, and they got rings to show for it. Any great player could put up good numbers. Dominque Wilkins. John Stocton, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkely. Now what do all these players have in common besides being great? No rings, and they don't have rings because greater players(i.e. the term "dominant"or since your such an English Major "more dominant"馃槈 beat them.
And for the record, you "could" b!tch about my grammar all you want. It's not like I'm getting graded for it. I've been posting here for 3 years and your the only person who has ever b!tched about it, and oddly enough I'm calling you and you're boy Yao Ming out in the process. (and doing a damn good job at it if I do say so myself)
I'll start paying more attention to my grammer, when you start paying more attention to your idiocy. Like I said, Francis was a superstar before Yao was around, and Jackson play with the Kings showed he could play w/o Yao.. You "could" say Yao elevated Francis and Jackson's game. You "could" also say Kwame Brown deserved to be a number 1 drat pick, but only someone with below basketball intelligence would say such things. So, I guess by your definition Yao is a more dominant Center than Bill Russell, Shaq, Walt Chamberlain, and Kareem Abdul Jabeer. Hell, lets put Patrick Ewing on that list too because he had a better jump shot, could post up and could shoot from the line for good percentage.
I'm just nearly stating a fact when I say Penny was at his best when he played with Shaq. Yea, having championship rings and gettin to the finals does prove your greatness(i.e "dominant"馃槈. Micheal Jordan, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Shaq. Bill Russell. What do all these players have in common? They dominated there competition from top to bottom, and they got rings to show for it. Any great player could put up good numbers. Dominque Wilkins. John Stocton, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkely. Now what do all these players have in common besides being great? No rings, and they don't have rings because greater players(i.e. the term "dominant"or since your such an English Major "more dominant"馃槈 beat them.
And for the record, you "could" b!tch about my grammar all you want. It's not like I'm getting graded for it. I've been posting here for 3 years and your the only person who has ever b!tched about it, and oddly enough I'm calling you and you're boy Yao Ming out in the process. (and doing a damn good job at it if I do say so myself)
Sheesh...you need to take a chill pill. I just had a little trouble understanding what you were writing, that's all. No need to take it like I dissed your family.
Now to the point. You need to stop changing the topic. Forget about Francis and Jackson. I know Francis was a superstar before Yao, stop bringing it up. All I said was when Yao came to Houston, he helped Francis, because more attention was down low, leaving Francis open more frequently. Stop being so annoying and reason with what I'm saying. Try to think what I mean, rather than blind read my posts. I only brought them up to support my point that you can't say, "Player A elevated his teammates more than Player B did to his, so Player A is dominant and Player B isn't." It doesn't work that way. You could say Player A is more dominant than Player B, but you can't simply shun Player B from be dominant. Again, I think we just have different definitions of being dominant.
And where the hell did you get me saying Yao is more dominant than Kareem, Bill Russell, and Wilt? Heck, I didn't say Yao was more dominant than Shaq, but I consider Yao a dominant center TODAY, partially because the majority of centers today are weak.
Calling me an idiot doesn't phase me at all, because it only proves to me how much more of an idiot and an ignorant person you are. It's sort of ironic how you call me that and then you show me the grammar of a 4th grader and call me out on things beside the point.
In conclusion, I think Yao is A (not the only) dominant center in the league TODAY. Whatever crap about Kareem, Wilt, and Russell, you brought up has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't even come close to saying that Yao was more dominant than Shaq, which you seem to be pointlessly trying to prove. Even if Yao didn't elevate anybody in his team, he's still a dominant center today IMO, because of the weak competition.
I am done arguing with you (I mean it) and you can reply, if you want to get the last word, but just a bit of advice for the future in debates or life in general: Before deciding to insult someone, make sure you cover up your errors that make you look bad (ie spelling and grammar) because it may seem like nothing to you, but believe me it makes a big difference in the long run. You will recieve much more credibility, even in casual forums like this, by paying close attention to detail.
Thanks, I'll gladly take the last word.
Originally posted by RecSpecs110Now to the point. You need to stop changing the topic. Forget about Francis and Jackson. I know Francis was a superstar before Yao, stop bringing it up. All I said was when Yao came to Houston, he helped Francis, because more attention was down low, leaving Francis open more frequently. Stop being so annoying and reason with what I'm saying. Try to think what I mean, rather than blind read my posts. I only brought them up to support my point that you can't say, "Player A elevated his teammates more than Player B did to his, so Player A is dominant and Player B isn't." It doesn't work that way. You could say Player A is more dominant than Player B, but you can't simply shun Player B from be dominant. Again, I think we just have different definitions of being dominant.
Whoever said Steve Francis was dominant? I never said that , I said he was a superstar, not dominant. You're just as blinded by my post, as appearantly I am with yours. I said Shaq elevated players game and you tried to say that Yao elevated Francis and Jacksons game which he didn't, oh wait, I'm sorry, you said someone "could" say that Yao elevated peoples game, that doesn't change the fact that he didn't. Now, Yao may have gave Francis some better looks, and Francis may have gave Yao some good dishes, but neither evelated each others game to another level.
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
And where the hell did you get me saying Yao is more dominant than Kareem, Bill Russell, and Wilt? Heck, I didn't say Yao was more dominant than Shaq, but I consider Yao a dominant center TODAY, partially because the majority of centers today are weak.
You may not have directly said Yao was more dominant than Shaq but you implied he was on the same level "I wouldn't consider Shaq as a player who elavated others anymore than I would to Yao."
Originally posted by RecSpecs110
I think if you average a double-double (at least 20 and 10) and you're a force that opponents have to always be wary of from the outside, the inside, and the FT line (not Shaq), you should be considered dominant.
This is where I got off saying why don't you put Yao ahead of players like Russell and such, because Russel, Chamberlain, and Kareem didnt have good outside Shots, and Russell never averaged more than 15 ppg in a season, so by your definition Yao is more dominant.
QUOTE=7844292]Originally posted by RecSpecs110
Calling me an idiot doesn't phase me at all, because it only proves to me how much more of an idiot and an ignorant person you are. It's sort of ironic how you call me that and then you show me the grammar of a 4th grader and call me out on things beside the point.[/QUOTE]
Yea dude, say what you want, but i consider it somewhat ironic that your'e telling me how to get respect in these forums, while I'm pretty confident that I've already earned the repects of the regular posters here, while you're still trying to get it.
QUOTE=7844292]Originally posted by RecSpecs110
In conclusion, I think Yao is A (not the only) dominant center in the league TODAY. Whatever crap about Kareem, Wilt, and Russell, you brought up has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't even come close to saying that Yao was more dominant than Shaq, which you seem to be pointlessly trying to prove. Even if Yao didn't elevate anybody in his team, he's still a dominant center today IMO, because of the weak competition. [/QUOTE]
Again, you did Imply that Yao was on the same level as Shaq. You keep seeing the same things in all of your paragraphs, I already rebutted this so i'm not gonna repeat myself.(take a note, this would shorten your posts, and save you some time)
QUOTE=7844292]Originally posted by RecSpecs110
I am done arguing with you (I mean it) and you can reply, if you want to get the last word, but just a bit of advice for the future in debates or life in general: Before deciding to insult someone, make sure you cover up your errors that make you look bad (ie spelling and grammar) because it may seem like nothing to you, but believe me it makes a big difference in the long run. You will recieve much more credibility, even in casual forums like this, by paying close attention to detail.
[/QUOTE]
Again, more repeating of the same things, and more irony about credibitly you don't even have. Here's a tip for you, When you're in a basketball thread, you might want to keep on track with basketball, if you want to call somewhat out on grammar I suggest you teach English, or find an English Forum somewhere.