Shimrra Jamaane and ROTS Mace Windu versus Post KOTOR Revan and DE Luke

This is Revan when he regained his memory and knowledge. DE Luke and Revan are informed of Shimrra's ability to withstand force attacks, and his staff of power.

Setting: Valley of the Sith Lords.

I ultimately see DE Luke and Revan taking this.

Mace's advantage in this battle is mainly stemming from his lightsaber prowess, however his Vaapad cannot apply to either of the enemy team due to the reasons that follow.

From Mace’s battle with Palpatine:

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-
And let it fountain out again.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow;

Vaapad is a technique that reflects hatred and darkness back at the opponent. Given that the two opponents he is fighting don’t use “hatred and darkness” in their fighting style, (them being Jedi and all) then it is a fair conclusion that Vaapad won’t have the same dramatic effect it did on ROTS Sidious.

1. If Mace were to engage either Luke or Revan in a lightsaber duel, then he is fighting either an opponent who can apparently “move faster than the eye can see” or an opponent with superiour Echani precognition compounded with his own signifnificant Jedi precognition. And he would be facing both of these opponents without the full benefit of Vaapad. His Shatterpoint technique, however will become helpful. It still will not prevent him from being defeated by Luke, but will likely make him stalemate against Revan.

Of course, a light saber battle can only occur if he can get to his opponents without being defeated by their force prowess. Bane learned all of his most powerful attacks from Revan’s holocrons, including the devastating “force storm.” With a statement from Malak whom observed Revan’s application of this technique, he continues that Revan is “even stronger as a Jedi” (with the lightside).

With this said, either of the duo would take out Mace, albeit with some difficulty.

Shimrra on the other hand possesses a massive advantage against the duo due to the fact he lives apart from the force...regardless he is not as powerful as many would assume.

2. Of course we have information that he was a dangerous adversary for Luke, but Luke was busy slaughtering the Vong battalions prior to the battle. Afterwards Luke's difficult victory could in part be to fatigue. However, against DE Luke who can “move faster than the eye can see” and who is not quite as tired, I see Shimraa’s staff sliced to pieces and Shimrra himself defeated.

With Revan, the battle may be more drawn out. Revan can use the force indirectly (since this is the valley of the sith lords) to break apart large pieces of temple and hurl it at Shimrra. Shimrra would be hard pressed to duel this opponent with his "staff of power" given Revan’s superiour precognitive abilities. Either way, he can-at the very least- stall. Ultimately Luke would defeat Mace and help Revan finish of Shimrra.

1. If Mace were to engage either Luke or Revan in a lightsaber duel, then he is fighting either an opponent who can apparently “move faster than the eye can see” or an opponent with superiour Echani precognition compounded with his own signifnificant Jedi precognition. And he would be facing both of these opponents without the full benefit of Vaapad. His Shatterpoint technique, however will become helpful. It still will not prevent him from being defeated by Luke, but will likely make him stalemate against Revan.

Why will Mace lose to Luke? Lets run through the basic arguements for each side.

Training time: Mace. He has 53 years of training by ROTS. DE Luke has less than a decade.

Experince: Mace. Luke has a ton of combat experince for a Jedi his age, but it's not more than Mace.

Access to knowledge: Mace. Mace had access to the entire Jedi Archives. Luke had very limited knowledge at this time, as he had yet to uncover things such as the Chu'uthor Archives and other similar sources.

Raw power: Luke. He's got more potential than Mace does, but he has yet to realize that majority of it.

Lightsaber form: Mace. Vapaad appears to be a better form than Form five (someone help me out, I can't remember it's name). Notice that Anakin, the greatest form five user Dooku had ever seen (and he had probably seen every one of them in the last 50 years) stated that Anakin was the best he had ever seen. However, Mace is far superior to Anakin when fully imersed in Vapaad. And from how good Depa and Sora were it seems that Vapaad is the best lightsaber form.

I disagree with you on your theory that indicates that Mace won't have the full benefit of Vapaad. It was a channel for the darkness and rage because that was what he was fighting. It is probable that it will have the same affect here, expecially since there is nothing to the contrary.

Of course, a light saber battle can only occur if he can get to his opponents without being defeated by their force prowess. Bane learned all of his most powerful attacks from Revan’s holocrons, including the devastating “force storm.” With a statement from Malak whom observed Revan’s application of this technique, he continues that Revan is “even stronger as a Jedi” (with the lightside).

With this said, either of the duo would take out Mace, albeit with some difficulty.

Does it matter if Revan knows the formula (for lack of better word) to use the Force Storm Technique that Bane used? Bane had to have the power of the entire Brotherhood to use it effectively. Revan's power is no where near that. Mace should be plenty capable to defending himself against it. An important side note, Bane's Force Storm Technqiue is a darkside technique. Even if your theory about Vapaad being best against Darkness is true Mace would still have access to it's full power to defend himself against this. And the fact of the matter is that Mace was able to protect himself from the Force attacks of Sidious, who was about as good as the most powerful Jedi up to that point. Revan, if lightside, falls somewhere below Yoda in power, meaning that Mace should be able to protect himself from anything Revan can though at him.

2. Of course we have information that he was a dangerous adversary for Luke, but Luke was busy slaughtering the Vong battalions prior to the battle. Afterwards Luke's difficult victory could in part be to fatigue. However, against DE Luke who can “move faster than the eye can see” and who is not quite as tired, I see Shimraa’s staff sliced to pieces and Shimrra himself defeated.

1. Shimrra's armor is logically stronger than Slayer armor as he is infinitely more important than them. Slayer armor was totally immune to Kyp's lightsaber strikes in all places except for perhaps the neck, back of the knee, and armpits. That presents anyone fighting Shimrra with an extremely small area to attack.

2. How many Vong Luke actually fought before faces Shimrra is in question. I believe the statement that he fought thousands of them to be hyperbole. If he was so capable, why wasn't he on the front line in every single battle owning the Vong? And how come other Jedi who come close to him in power have trouble with a mere dozen warriors? Luke was tired, but even in that state he was still leagues more powerful than DE Luke. Shimrra's got the upperhand in a fight against either of them, especially since he is immune to their Force attacks.

With Revan, the battle may be more drawn out. Revan can use the force indirectly (since this is the valley of the sith lords) to break apart large pieces of temple and hurl it at Shimrra. Shimrra would be hard pressed to duel this opponent with his "staff of power" given Revan’s superiour precognitive abilities. Either way, he can-at the very least- stall. Ultimately Luke would defeat Mace and help Revan finish of Shimrra.

When has Revan displayed the ability to do such things? Shimrra has a MASSIVE physical strength advantage over his oppenents as well as FAR better armor and such. I'd argue that he could take either DE Luke or Revan in a straight fight. And as I have already stated, I don't see Mace going down in one-on-one against DE Luke or Revan. Recent arguements by LS and company have put him far higher on my list.

Originally posted by zephiel7
This is Revan when he regained his memory and knowledge. DE Luke and Revan are informed of Shimrra's ability to withstand force attacks, and his staff of power.

[B]

Mace's advantage in this battle is mainly stemming from his lightsaber prowess, however his Vaapad cannot apply to either of the enemy team due to the reasons that follow.

From Mace’s battle with Palpatine:

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's [b]rage and power into his inmost center-
And let it fountain out again.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow;

Vaapad is a technique that reflects hatred and darkness back at the opponent. Given that the two opponents he is fighting don’t use “hatred and darkness” in their fighting style, (them being Jedi and all) then it is a fair conclusion that Vaapad won’t have the same dramatic effect it did on ROTS Sidious.

[/B]

Wow, I'll give a big DUH! to that.

Of course it won't effect Revan and Luke... 🙄

Except If luke tries to use Dark Force abilities, he'll be utilising the Dark side, and thereby providing Mace with a well of power to draw from.

I say Mace fights Luke and takes him out after Luke puts up a decent fight.

Elsewhere on the battlefield, Revan has engaged Shimrra in a duel to the death and is now in the process of physically dismantling his body with his lightsaber.

Now with Shimrra and Luke dead, It's just Revan and Mace.

And Yeah...

After thinking about it, I'd say Revan.

But not by much. He's hurt really badly.

But he wins.

I say Mace fights Luke and takes him out after Luke puts up a decent fight.

Proof? Vaapad's usefullness is fully realized when Mace is fighting against a Sith opponent, where it reflects the hatred back at the opponent. Against DE Luke, he is fighting against a Jedi, and one that can "move faster than the eye can see." You stated DUH, Vaapad won't work on the two force users, yourself. Care to prove how Mace overpowers Luke? Especially when Luke is in a different alltogether in speed?

Luke wins. DUH!

Without the full benefit of Vaapad, Mace's major advantage in this battle is gone. Luke would take him out just by sheer speed alone.

Shimrra would likely take DE Luke since he put up a good fight agaist a much stromger version of Luke. Mace vs. Revan's close, Mace has Vaapad, and I'm not sure how strong post KOTOR Revan is... still, if Mace wins he then gets killed by Shimrra.

Shimrra eats Revan while Mace and Luke fight, or Shimrra beats Luke while Mace begins to overcome Revan.

Team one.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Proof? Vaapad's usefullness is fully realized when Mace is fighting against a Sith opponent, where it reflects the hatred back at the opponent. Against DE Luke, he is fighting against a Jedi, and one that can "move faster than the eye can see." You stated DUH, Vaapad won't work on the two force users, yourself. Care to prove how Mace overpowers Luke? Especially when Luke is in a different alltogether in speed?

Luke wins. DUH!

Without the full benefit of Vaapad, Mace's major advantage in this battle is gone. Luke would take him out just by sheer speed alone.

Even in the EXTREMELY unlikely event that Mace is weaker than DE Luke it doesn't matter as the fight would be so close that it would take a very long time for someone to win. Much longer before then Shimrra would defeat Revan and come help Mace.

I have to go with Revan and Luke. I see Revan beating Mace, because:
1. Revan is POSSIBLY the second most powerful Sith ever, and even stronger post- KOTOR.
2. One might argue that Mace was able to beat ROTS Sidious, and Sidious was THE most powerful Sith ever. However, Mace's principle advantage against Sidious was Vaapad, which couldn't be used against Revan post-KOTOR, considering he's a light-side Force user.
3. I doubt it's a very big step up from post KOTOR Revan to ROTS Sidious, if any at all.

I see DE Luke and Shimrra battling it out for a while, in an apparent stalemate, until Revan comes over after beating Mace and helps Luke kick Shimrra's Yuuzhan Vong @$$