How the Democrats could do something useful

Started by Darth_Erebus4 pages

Originally posted by Badabing
Fact:
Increasing the tax burden on the wealthy stagnates investments and slows the economy. A vibrant economy is accomplished with investments by the people which in turn produces more jobs.

Fact:
Jimmy Carter made tax increases that brought the USA into a recession. Unemployment was at an all time high.

Fact:
Ronald Reagan's tax cuts in the 1980's brought the USA out of the recession. These tax cuts also freed capital for R & D. We have all the nice electronic gadgets today because corporations were able to explore new technologies due to investments, lower taxes and the free market economy which is based on competition.

Fact:
It's a miracle that the USA has such a robust economy today after 9/11, Katrina and with the War on Terror. The unemployment rate is below 5%. The reason is the tax cuts and a free market economy based on competition. Small businesses are also flourishing. As a business owner I know about this first hand.

Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed.

A free and competitive open market is the best system in the World. That's the reason everybody is trying to get in the USA, a better life with great opportunity. A Socialist system with government handouts breeds nothing but complacency and apathy. I believe that the US Government does have an obligation to care for the aged, disabled and unfortunate but they should also promote self reliance as part of the Welfare System.

All that is good except for...debt, debt, debt, and more debt. Thank the powers that be starting with Ronnie. The American consumer, despite stagnant wages, has more gadgets than ever. How is that? His debt level is at an historic high and his savings rates are lower than during the great depression. We simply cannot follow the free market philosiphy of buying from China and borrowing from anyone willing to finance. If we enacted some trade barriers, and raised the tax levels on the people with all the money then we could still be capitalist while cutting our deficiets. The time is going to come to pay the piper, and real soon.

Btw, no one is advocating socialism or handouts. We can still be capitalist, but be capitalist IN America. There's no reason a CEO needs to make 400 times what a blue collar worker does. That isn't free market, that's just plain greed.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Uh... fact: the record Federal budget deficit the U.S. currently has is in significant part due to the tax cuts of W's Administration.
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
All that is good except for...debt, debt, debt, and more debt. Thank the powers that be starting with Ronnie. The American consumer, despite stagnant wages, has more gadgets than ever. How is that? His debt level is at an historic high and his savings rates are lower than during the great depression. We simply cannot follow the free market philosiphy of buying from China and borrowing from anyone willing to finance. If we enacted some trade barriers, and raised the tax levels on the people with all the money then we could still be capitalist while cutting our deficiets. The time is going to come to pay the piper, and real soon.

Btw, no one is advocating socialism or handouts. We can still be capitalist, but be capitalist IN America. There's no reason a CEO needs to make 400 times what a blue collar worker does. That isn't free market, that's just plain greed.

That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. 😉

Originally posted by Badabing
That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. 😉
Rose-coloured glasses, in keeping with the vision impairment theme. I'd be curious to see some figures to support such statements.

Decline in revenue due to tax cuts has had a greater impact than increased expenditure on the "War on Terror" and Katrina.

Total Real Per-Capita Revenue Growth in 22 Quarters
after the Last Business Cycle Peak

Current Business Cycle -0.4%
Average for All Previous Post-World War II Business Cycles 9.8%
1990s Business Cycle 10.7%

This is all basic knowledge. Read the business and finance section of your newspaper. The stock market is robust along with the economy. Aside from a few far left member, the new Democratic Congress doesn't want to raise taxes. 😉

"Congressional Budget Office data show that the tax cuts have been the single largest contributor to the reemergence of substantial budget deficits in recent years. Legislation enacted since 2001 has added about $2.3 trillion to deficits between 2001 and 2006, with half of this deterioration in the budget due to the tax cuts (about a third was due to increases in security spending, and about a sixth to increases in domestic spending). Yet the President and some Congressional leaders decline to acknowledge the tax cuts’ role in the nation’s budget problems, falling back instead on the discredited nostrum that tax cuts “pay for themselves.”"

"Even taking into account the stronger revenue growth now projected for fiscal year 2006, real per-capita revenues have simply returned to the level they reached more than five years ago, when the current business cycle began in March 2001. (March 2001 was the peak and thus the end of the previous business cycle, and hence also the start of the current business cycle.) In contrast, in previous post-World War II business cycles, real per-capita revenues have grown an average of about 10 percent over the five and a half years following the previous business-cycle peak.[5] By this stage in the 1990s business cycle, real per-capita revenues had increased by 11 percent.

Overall, this economic recovery has been slightly weaker than the average post-World War II recovery. In particular, GDP growth and investment growth have been below the historical average, despite recent tax cuts specifically targeted at increasing investment.

Those who claim that tax cuts pay for themselves might argue that stronger revenue growth in 2005 and 2006 represents the beginning of a new trend, and that the tax cuts could pay for themselves over the longer term. Neither the historical record nor current revenue projections support this argument.

In 1981, Congress approved very large supply-side tax cuts, dramatically lowering marginal income-tax rates. In 1990 and 1993, by contrast, Congress raised marginal income-tax rates on the well off. Despite the very different tax policies followed during these two decades, there was virtually no difference in real per-person economic growth in the 1980s and 1990s. Real per-person revenues, however, grew about twice as quickly in the 1990s, when taxes were increased, as in the 1980s, when taxes were cut.

Even the Administration does not project that revenues will continue to grow at their recent rates or that the tax cuts will pay for themselves. Under the revenue assumptions in the Office of Management and Budget’s Mid-Session Review, real per-person revenues will grow at an annual average rate of just 0.8 percent between 2000 and 2011, only about half the growth rate during the 1980s and less than one-fourth the growth rate during the 1990s.

Studies by the Congressional Budget Office, the Joint Committee on Taxation, and the Administration itself show that tax cuts do not come anywhere close to paying for themselves over the long term. CBO and Joint Tax Committee studies find that, if financed by government borrowing, tax cuts are more likely to harm than to help the economy over the long run, and consequently would cost more than conventional estimates indicate, rather than less. Moreover, in its recent “dynamic analysis” of the impact of making the President’s tax cuts permanent, the Treasury Department reported that even under favorable assumptions, extending the tax cuts would have only a small effect on economic output. That small positive economic impact would offset no more than 10 percent of the tax cuts’ cost." CBPP

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0411/p01s02-usec.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-market08oct08,0,2627247.story?coll=la-opinion-leftrail
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit12oct12,1,3781839.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/EDIT/608140331/1003
The US economy is growing. The deficit is from 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror and the economy is STILL strong. 😉

Originally posted by Badabing
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0411/p01s02-usec.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-market08oct08,0,2627247.story?coll=la-opinion-leftrail
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit12oct12,1,3781839.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/EDIT/608140331/1003
The US economy is growing. The deficit is from 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror and the economy is STILL strong. 😉
Rose-coloured glasses and myopia.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116018268051085656-MKLhN1dNz7vu6bUFun6ri0Aagp8_20061105.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

On Wednesday, October 11, the Treasury announced the final deficit figure for fiscal 2006. That figure is $248 billion.

This figure is $42 billion lower than the $290 billion deficit that the Office of Management and Budget estimated on July 11, which itself was lower than the deficit estimates that OMB and CBO issued last winter.[1] Consequently, the announcement seems like good news. But it is more of a temporary blip than solid progress. The improvement in the deficit may not extend even beyond this year, and the long-term outlook remains bleak.

* The improvement in the deficit may not extend beyond this year. As former CBO Director Douglas Holtz-Eakin observed a few days ago about the new deficit figures, “The world doesn’t end, but the deficit goes in the other direction next year.”[2]

* The outlook for the budget over the next 10 years remains bleak. CBO’s August projections show that if Congress makes the President’s tax cuts permanent and extends relief from the alternative minimum tax, deficits will total nearly $3.5 trillion over the next 10 years (2007-2016), averaging $349 billion a year and never dipping below $280 billion a year even if costs for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan fall substantially.[3] And the deficit outlook for subsequent decades, when increasing numbers of baby boomers will retire and, thus, receive Social Security and health care coverage, is substantially worse.

* A deficit of $248 billion in 2006 means that the second largest six-year deterioration in the budget in 50 years has occurred, just behind the deterioration in the six-year period from 1998-2004. In 2000, there was a budget surplus equal to 2.4 percent of Gross Domestic Product. A deficit of $248 billion in 2006 equals 1.9 percent of GDP. This 4.3 percentage point deterioration in the budget is the second-largest six-year deterioration in half a century, just behind the 4.4 percentage point deterioration between 1998 and 2004.

The Administration is essentially celebrating a deficit that is lower in 2006 than in 2004 or 2005, even though deficits typically shrink during recoveries. More noteworthy is that the budgetary record during the current recovery is worse than during any other recovery in recent decades.

* The deficit announcement does not signify recent improvement in the economy. Of the $42 billion improvement in the deficit from OMB’s July figure of $290 billion, about $30 billion comes from slower spending. In some cases, that simply means that the government will spend some of the funds in 2007 rather than in 2006. In addition, the Blue Chip has just reduced its consensus economic-growth estimate, and Goldman-Sachs says “The economy has clearly downshifted further in the third quarter.” Also, on October 6, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that job growth so far in 2006 has been considerably slower than in 2005, and the job growth in September was the lowest of any month this year.

Despite persistent claims to the contrary, revenue growth over the current business cycle actually has been negative, after adjusting for inflation and population growth. Specifically, per capita revenues were lower in real terms in 2006 than in 2001, when the last recovery ended and the current business cycle started. While revenues have grown since 2004, this growth has not yet fully compensated for the fall in revenues that occurred in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Indeed, the overall lack of revenue growth over the current business cycle is almost unprecedented for economic recoveries since the end of World War II. It stands in stark contrast to claims that the President’s tax cuts have boosted economic and revenue growth to remarkable levels.

* The economy’s overall performance has been weaker during the current recovery than in an average recovery, which also stands in contrast to claims of a tax-cut fueled boom. Economic data, available through the second quarter of 2006, show that the current economic expansion remains weaker than the average post-World War II economic recovery -- with GDP and non-residential investment growth falling below, and employment and wage and salary growth falling far below, historical norms. [4]

* Finally, the announcement provides more evidence of the central role that recent tax cuts have played in the current deficit picture. Based on Joint Committee on Taxation estimates, the total cost in 2006 of tax cuts enacted since January 2001 was $251 billion (including the increased interest costs of the debt that resulted from borrowing to offset the lost revenues). This means that even with the spending for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the response to Hurricane Katrina, the federal budget would have been in virtual balance in 2006 if the tax cuts had not been enacted.

Originally posted by Badabing
Fact:
Increasing the tax burden on the wealthy stagnates investments and slows the economy. A vibrant economy is accomplished with investments by the people which in turn produces more jobs.

Fact:
Jimmy Carter made tax increases that brought the USA into a recession. Unemployment was at an all time high.

Fact:
Ronald Reagan's tax cuts in the 1980's brought the USA out of the recession. These tax cuts also freed capital for R & D. We have all the nice electronic gadgets today because corporations were able to explore new technologies due to investments, lower taxes and the free market economy which is based on competition.

Fact:
It's a miracle that the USA has such a robust economy today after 9/11, Katrina and with the War on Terror. The unemployment rate is below 5%. The reason is the tax cuts and a free market economy based on competition. Small businesses are also flourishing. As a business owner I know about this first hand.

Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed.

A free and competitive open market is the best system in the World. That's the reason everybody is trying to get in the USA, a better life with great opportunity. A Socialist system with government handouts breeds nothing but complacency and apathy. I believe that the US Government does have an obligation to care for the aged, disabled and unfortunate but they should also promote self reliance as part of the Welfare System.


Maybe you should read my original post. It's about the economy and free market and not the deficit. Your argument is moot. The economy is strong despite the deficit (which has nothing to do with my original post). Even with paying for 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror, the deficit is lower than expected and the Economy is strong. Sorry, misdirection does not work on me.
😉
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/EDIT/608140331/1003
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-market08oct08,0,2627247.story?coll=la-opinion-leftrail
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit12oct12,1,3781839.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true

Your original post is a perpetuated myth. Real wages, adjusted for inflation are falling, while corporate profits rise, only serving to increase the disparity between the wealthy and everyone else. And tax cuts haven't had any significant positive real effect on growth. Making those permanent beyond 2010 will cost $3 trillion. Funding tax cuts with a deficit is incredibly bad myopia, all you're doing is shifting the burden to future generations. Spending more than you have with no real returns is bad economics in anybody's books.

Originally posted by Badabing
Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed

Hello! Socialism was never achieved in the world. Communist systems failed and if you think its just because "c@pitAlzm ROXXORZ!" you're dead wrong.

I have two words for you NATIONAL DEBT. I will spend the next 50 years of my life paying Bush's crappy tax and war policy.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Your original post is a perpetuated myth. Real wages, adjusted for inflation are falling, while corporate profits rise, only serving to increase the disparity between the wealthy and everyone else. And tax cuts haven't had any significant positive real effect on growth. Making those permanent beyond 2010 will cost $3 trillion. Funding tax cuts with a deficit is incredibly bad myopia, all you're doing is shifting the burden to future generations. Spending more than you have with no real returns is bad economics in anybody's books.

Sorry but the facts are in my favor and trump your opinion.
Stock Market - Good
Standard of living - Good
Consumer spending - Good
GDP - Good
Scream deficit all you like but the U.S. economy is STRONG despite 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror. 😉

Originally posted by Alliance
Hello! Socialism was never achieved in the world. Communist systems failed and if you think its just because "c@pitAlzm ROXXORZ!" you're dead wrong.
You may want to check these sites. 😉 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
If Capitalism and a Free Marker Economy are so bad then why does the USA have the highest standard of living in the World with millions of people trying to immigrate here. 😎

Originally posted by Alliance
I have two words for you NATIONAL DEBT. I will spend the next 50 years of my life paying Bush's crappy tax and war policy.

That still has nothing to do with my original post about the STRONG U.S. economy. Study up on the Budget and how it works. The US population isn't taxed in proportion of the deficit. 😉

Nice try guys but the U.S. economy is strong and Socialism has failed numerous times. I'll chat with you guys later. I'm a self employed Capitalist who must get sleep and help keep the wheels a turning in this vibrant U.S. economy. God Bless. 🙂

Originally posted by Badabing
This is all basic knowledge.

I find it hard to believe that you could boil higer wages down to higer income taxes collected. If it's all so basic, why can you not understand it?

Originally posted by Badabing
Nice try guys but the U.S. economy is strong and Socialism has failed numerous times. I'll chat with you guys later. I'm a self employed Capitalist who must get sleep and help keep the wheels a turning in this vibrant U.S. economy. God Bless. 🙂
The economy is good, sure, but America is deficit spending in the billions and we're constantly borrowing money from China. That is not good.

Originally posted by Badabing
Sorry but the facts are in my favor and trump your opinion.
Stock Market - Good
Standard of living - Good
Consumer spending - Good
GDP - Good
Scream deficit all you like but the U.S. economy is STRONG despite 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror. 😉
Half of U.S. citizens have no stake in the stockmarket. The upper 20% of the population controlling 90% of the stockmarket wealth.

While productivity has risen, real wages have not. The disparity between wealthy and everyone else continues to widen. The minimum wage being the lowest in 60 years.

Consumer spending based on consumer debt.

Tax cuts do not have any considerable effect on economic growth, while affecting revenue growth.

Interest payment on national debt is among the top three sources of spending.

Your opinion that tax cuts are the be all and end all that have resulted in U.S. economic success is very much an opinion.

[QUOTE=7761348]Originally posted by Badabing
That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. 😉 [/QUOTE

You really have no clue do you? The people making the higher incomes are getting the biggest tax breaks. And a higher stock market doesn't necessarily mean a better economy, it means corporations are doing well with short term profits. The long term trend is real wages are stagnant. Working people, which account for the majority of consumer spending, are having a harder and harder time of it. Another indicator, one which should have everyone worried, is the housing market. Most markets in the US are now in a freefall because of all the "creative" financing of the last few years. Forclosures are up at an alarming rate. What do you think is going to happen when financial institutions can't recoup their losses? It's all going to come crashing down, just wait and see.

Originally posted by Badabing
[B. Sorry, misdirection does not work on me.
url] [/B]

Obviously, neither do logic and reason.

🙂

😉

😄

😉

😉

cool, now i contributed to the debate

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I find it hard to believe that you could boil higer wages down to higer income taxes collected. If it's all so basic, why can you not understand it?

He mentions more then income tax's collected.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Half of U.S. citizens have no stake in the stockmarket. The upper 20% of the population controlling 90% of the stockmarket wealth.

While productivity has risen, real wages have not. The disparity between wealthy and everyone else continues to widen. The minimum wage being the lowest in 60 years.

Consumer spending based on consumer debt.

Tax cuts do not have any considerable effect on economic growth, while affecting revenue growth.

Interest payment on national debt is among the top three sources of spending.

Your opinion that tax cuts are the be all and end all that have resulted in U.S. economic success is very much an opinion.

No, the tax cuts helped create and economic evironment for growth. It's a matter of fact that the economy is growing and doing well. If you were only IN the USA to witness things first hand. 😉
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
[QUOTE=7761348]Originally posted by Badabing
[B]That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. 😉
[/QUOTE

You really have no clue do you? The people making the higher incomes are getting the biggest tax breaks. And a higher stock market doesn't necessarily mean a better economy, it means corporations are doing well with short term profits. The long term trend is real wages are stagnant. Working people, which account for the majority of consumer spending, are having a harder and harder time of it. Another indicator, one which should have everyone worried, is the housing market. Most markets in the US are now in a freefall because of all the "creative" financing of the last few years. Forclosures are up at an alarming rate. What do you think is going to happen when financial institutions can't recoup their losses? It's all going to come crashing down, just wait and see. [/B]

No, I have a very good clue. "It's all going to come crashing down, just wait and see" is your opinion and has nothing to do with the fact that the US economy is growing and vibrant. Your post is nothing but speculation. The fact remains that the economy is doing well despite the effects of 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror. The tax breaks open up capital for investers that promotes business growth. This, in turn, filters down and creates prosperity for all.
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Obviously, neither do logic and reason.

Fact and not opinion is my point. 😉

See, I don't like paying taxes. Therefore, cut taxes.

I also don't like national debt. Therefore, raise taxes.

(Damn.)