Their mortal bodies are both as near as can be told the same age, 2,000 or so years as they both arrived in the same year 1,000 of the 3rd Age of Middle-earth. Their spirits are Immortal they existed in the beginning before Ea and they shall exist at the end. When Saurman arrived in Middle-earth his hair was Raven Black so he has shown signs of ageing as have all the Istari albeit very slowly.
Originally posted by thefallen544
It is also suggested that Saurmans spirit was too weak from his fall, that he was never to return to the blessed realm, that he would have been subjected to the same fate as Sauron a weak spirit. This is implied because his spirit in a grey mist is seen to rise from his body and quote"as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." ROTK, Scouring of the Shire.
I put it forward that Saurman/Curumo did not return to the West for he failed and fell into darkness. Only Gandalf/Olorin is confirmed to have returned to the West from where he came.
So, Saruman's weakened spirit was banished to the Void, the Northern Waste, or locked behind the Door of Night along with Morgoth?
Raises another good point. If the Undying Lands is Tolkiens 'heaven' then what is his 'hell' (He did include many Christian parallels).
Ok now I'm ****ing confused.
I have read the Simarillion before but that doesn't register...
He lived in Valinor? Is this just before he persuades Ungoliant to poison the trees of Valinor?
So where and what is the Door of Night? I always thought it was just a phrase for the beginning of night, you know like eternal darkness. There's an inside and outside? Now I really don't understand it...
In the Halls of Mandos, where spirits go when their bodies die, unless one is a sufficiently powerful Ainur.
Well, to be technical, there are two references IIRC to a Door of Night, one having something to do with the Sun, but the other being the gateway inside the Halls of Mandos, to the void outside creation, where the Eru and the rest of the Ainur are, and where the spirits of Man pass on to.
Originally posted by thefallen544
It is also suggested that Saurmans spirit was too weak from his fall, that he was never to return to the blessed realm, that he would have been subjected to the same fate as Sauron a weak spirit. This is implied because his spirit in a grey mist is seen to rise from his body and quote"as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." ROTK, Scouring of the Shire.
I put it forward that Saurman/Curumo did not return to the West for he failed and fell into darkness. Only Gandalf/Olorin is confirmed to have returned to the West from where he came.
Yes, his spirit certainly did NOT return to the blessed realm, that is made clear by the text you quoted. Furthermore, I've always interpreted those words to mean that Saruman actually died as in oblivion- "...dissolved into nothing." Unlike Sauron, he wasn't powerful enough to remain as a malevolent shadow, spiteful yet powerless. That's my take on it anyway.
Yes, Gandalf and the other wizards first existed as immortal spirits long before coming to m-e, but in strict m-e years, there are many older beings... a number of the Elves are older, and Ents as well... and of course Tom Bombadil was the first living thing to exist, created by Iluvitar for some unknown purpose... greater than Elvish kings, yet simple as a Hobbit, Tom is the olderst, as he likes to say.
Originally posted by The Secret Fire
So, Saruman's weakened spirit was banished to the Void, the Northern Waste, or locked behind the Door of Night along with Morgoth?Raises another good point. If the Undying Lands is Tolkiens 'heaven' then what is his 'hell' (He did include many Christian parallels).
Hell was on earth- Angband, the strong hold of Morgoth. Morgoth attempted to counter "paradise" by turning m-e into its exact opposite. I don't believe there was ever any other hell-like realm in JRR's writings except for the hell which was Angband (and later Mordor).
Originally posted by thefallen544
It is also suggested that Saurmans spirit was too weak from his fall, that he was never to return to the blessed realm, that he would have been subjected to the same fate as Sauron a weak spirit. This is implied because his spirit in a grey mist is seen to rise from his body and quote"as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." ROTK, Scouring of the Shire.
I put it forward that Saurman/Curumo did not return to the West for he failed and fell into darkness. Only Gandalf/Olorin is confirmed to have returned to the West from where he came.
No. At the beginning, in the Ainulindale or the Valaquenta, Eru himself states that all spirits are basically indestructible. He made them that way, with the Flame Imperishable, which is something that exists only inside Eru himself.
As to the dissolving into nothing comment, that simply means that the presence there faded and dispersed and that nothing remained in that place.
And the Firstborn of Illuvatar came awoke long after the Ainur had been shaping the Earth for them.