PIS Consistency vs Common Sense

Originally posted by Alfheim
🙄 Im done with this. Im not going into this because this is just going to be a complete waste of time. They are similar concepts and you know it.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They're similar concepts but they're distinct concepts. That's why there are two of them.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well thank you for making my argument even stronger.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Could you be any more incoherent? It was an FYI, an aside, an NB, an annotation, in parentheses.

I could elaborate but im not going to bother.

I'm gonna be honest about something. Screaming PIS in every argument is just flat out bullshit, and nothing ever gets solved. That's why I'm guessing Wolverine vs Spider-Man has gone on so long. However, whenever feats happen in comics, nobody ever takes in mind a few things:

1. Context
2. Character
3. Purpose

Here's what I mean by that.

Context is why either two characters are fighting. This is the problem in analyzing most Hulk fights, and why he's taking down top tier characters. About 80 percent of the time, that character is trying to just subdue banner, but it never turns out that way.

Character determines how a person fights. Superman will never, and I mean NEVER use the full extent of his powers in a battle unless he's away from earth. If he did, he would regret it for the rest of his life. It's not in his character to constantly go around and whup up on people going 15 times lightspeed and such.

Purpose is why the hell they're fighting in the first place. If you're just fighting for sparring, and someone out of nowhere stabs you in the head, that's just crap. The best example is the training session between Wolverine and Spider-Man when Wolvie stabs him for no damn reason, and Spidey passes out. 2 words: cheap shot.

So, you've gotta take the low feats and high feats with the context of the situation. If there's no explanation whatsoever for a low feat, then it's crap.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
I'm gonna be honest about something. Screaming PIS in every argument is just flat out bullshit, and nothing ever gets solved. That's why I'm guessing Wolverine vs Spider-Man has gone on so long. However, whenever feats happen in comics, nobody ever takes in mind a few things:

1. Context
2. Character
3. Purpose

Here's what I mean by that.

Context is why either two characters are fighting. This is the problem in analyzing most Hulk fights, and why he's taking down top tier characters. About 80 percent of the time, that character is trying to just subdue banner, but it never turns out that way.

Character determines how a person fights. Superman will never, and I mean NEVER use the full extent of his powers in a battle unless he's away from earth. If he did, he would regret it for the rest of his life. It's not in his character to constantly go around and whup up on people going 15 times lightspeed and such.

Purpose is why the hell they're fighting in the first place. If you're just fighting for sparring, and someone out of nowhere stabs you in the head, that's just crap. The best example is the training session between Wolverine and Spider-Man when Wolvie stabs him for no damn reason, and Spidey passes out. 2 words: cheap shot.

So, you've gotta take the low feats and high feats with the context of the situation. If there's no explanation whatsoever for a low feat, then it's crap.

Very good point.

Thanks much. I don't really like the whole PIS or SVFL system, because it's honestly far too raggedy and torn. Isn't it the system that CBR initially used?

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
Thanks much. I don't really like the whole PIS or SVFL system, because it's honestly far too raggedy and torn. Isn't it the system that CBR initially used?

Whats that?

Comic Book Resources.

Honestly, it's the most notorious forum for fanboys. I can't stand it, or their debate rules. Debates go WAY too long with them.

Unfortunately fanboys lack common sense and does not listened therefore its quite difficult to explained the pisseness (doubt thats a word) of a panel being shown...

The system is flawed as hell. One isolated incident that isn't very convenient and the fanboys go ape shit. But still, we need these terms as something of a guide line.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
The system is flawed as hell. One isolated incident that isn't very convenient and the fanboys go ape shit. But still, we need these terms as something of a guide line.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
I'm gonna be honest about something. Screaming PIS in every argument is just flat out bullshit, and nothing ever gets solved. That's why I'm guessing Wolverine vs Spider-Man has gone on so long. However, whenever feats happen in comics, nobody ever takes in mind a few things:

1. Context
2. Character
3. Purpose

Here's what I mean by that.

Context is why either two characters are fighting. This is the problem in analyzing most Hulk fights, and why he's taking down top tier characters. About 80 percent of the time, that character is trying to just subdue banner, but it never turns out that way.

Character determines how a person fights. Superman will never, and I mean NEVER use the full extent of his powers in a battle unless he's away from earth. If he did, he would regret it for the rest of his life. It's not in his character to constantly go around and whup up on people going 15 times lightspeed and such.

Purpose is why the hell they're fighting in the first place. If you're just fighting for sparring, and someone out of nowhere stabs you in the head, that's just crap. The best example is the training session between Wolverine and Spider-Man when Wolvie stabs him for no damn reason, and Spidey passes out. 2 words: cheap shot.

So, you've gotta take the low feats and high feats with the context of the situation. If there's no explanation whatsoever for a low feat, then it's crap.

Well said. 👆

Originally posted by darthgoober
I know. I think that the terms need to be better defined, so that there will be less arguing over what qualifies.

Well, I've always been actively pro-logic and completely anti-panel as the main source of evidence. Going by comic book appearances only is a terrible system for several reasons. That's not to say that what happens on panel should be ignored entirely, but the the ratio definitely needs to be adjusted, imo.

Originally posted by H. S. 6
Well said. 👆

Thanks much. Funny thing is that I learned those priciples from Theological Study. In any book, especially scripture, all three of those principles apply all the time.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
I'm gonna be honest about something. Screaming PIS in every argument is just flat out bullshit, and nothing ever gets solved. That's why I'm guessing Wolverine vs Spider-Man has gone on so long. However, whenever feats happen in comics, nobody ever takes in mind a few things:

1. Context
2. Character
3. Purpose

Here's what I mean by that.

Context is why either two characters are fighting. This is the problem in analyzing most Hulk fights, and why he's taking down top tier characters. About 80 percent of the time, that character is trying to just subdue banner, but it never turns out that way.

Character determines how a person fights. Superman will never, and I mean NEVER use the full extent of his powers in a battle unless he's away from earth. If he did, he would regret it for the rest of his life. It's not in his character to constantly go around and whup up on people going 15 times lightspeed and such.

Purpose is why the hell they're fighting in the first place. If you're just fighting for sparring, and someone out of nowhere stabs you in the head, that's just crap. The best example is the training session between Wolverine and Spider-Man when Wolvie stabs him for no damn reason, and Spidey passes out. 2 words: cheap shot.

So, you've gotta take the low feats and high feats with the context of the situation. If there's no explanation whatsoever for a low feat, then it's crap.

That's great and all, but on these forums bloodlust is automatically on. That means no beating around the bush or jobbing. Some of the PIS fights are only PIS because they shouldn't usually happen, not because they CAN'T happen at all. The bloodlust rule serves as way of stripping a fight of narrative pretenses, commercial interests and multi-interpretability. Only then can a fight have a truly logical outcome. However, CIS is usually on, so there is still some connection.

Your example of Superman is valid, but the problem is that it's nearly impossible to decide how badly Superman must hold back against who. And what it means for the fight. You will experience the wrath of fanboys if you try to pinpoint it. That's why it's so much easier to just have everyone go all out against everyone. That way, you won't see too many mismatches.

PIS occurs to me anytime a book/character breaks its/his own internal consistency. when that happens suspension of disbelief goes out the window. if batman harms superman with a kick one time, it's PIS. if he's harmed ww and cap marvel and manhunter and hulk and many other similar type characters with a kick, it is not PIS in my book because the character has maintained its own internal consistency. another way to say it is the mode of a charactter's showings, as opposed to his/her mean or median. meh, that may NOT be the way the forum decides PIS, but that's my own view.

frankly, PIS is screamed far too often -- and generally by a person who is getting their ass handed to them in a debate . . .

PIS has next to nothing to do with "real-world-logic". how could it? we're talking about comicbooks, where logic can apply one instant and not the next. that very inconsistency is the antithesis of logic.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
That's great and all, but on these forums bloodlust is automatically on. That means no beating around the bush or jobbing. Some of the PIS fights are only PIS because they shouldn't usually happen, not because they CAN'T happen at all. The bloodlust rule serves as way of stripping a fight of narrative pretenses, commercial interests and multi-interpretability. Only then can a fight have a truly logical outcome. However, CIS is usually on, so there is still some connection.

Your example of Superman is valid, but the problem is that it's nearly impossible to decide how badly Superman must hold back against who. And what it means for the fight. You will experience the wrath of fanboys if you try to pinpoint it. That's why it's so much easier to just have everyone go all out against everyone. That way, you won't see too many mismatches.

You're forgetting something. Bloodlust is NOT standard. I read the rules when I got here.

Originally posted by Tron
Bloodlust

It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first picosecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Originally posted by leonidas
PIS occurs to me anytime a book/character breaks its/his own internal consistency. when that happens suspension of disbelief goes out the window. if batman harms superman with a kick one time, it's PIS. if he's harmed ww and cap marvel and manhunter and hulk and many other similar type characters with a kick, it is not PIS in my book because the character has maintained its own internal consistency. another way to say it is the mode of a charactter's showings, as opposed to his/her mean or median. meh, that may NOT be the way the forum decides PIS, but that's my own view.

frankly, PIS is screamed far too often -- and generally by a person who is getting their ass handed to them in a debate . . .

PIS has next to nothing to do with "real-world-logic". how could it? we're talking about comicbooks, where logic can apply one instant and not the next. that very inconsistency is the antithesis of logic.

Everyone knows particular characters have jobber auras.

Also all logic is not devoid in comics, just as all physics are not devoid. Common sense shouldn't be compromised for ludicrous things repeated two or three times in decades of comics.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
You're forgetting something. Bloodlust is NOT standard. I read the rules when I got here.

Bloodlust = fighting to the best of abilities, within character. That means Spiderman won't kill his opponent, but he will NOT job to those weaker than him either. He will go for the win in the quickest way possible.

Or at least that's what how I got it. The word bloodlust is not to be taken too literally.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Bloodlust = fighting to the best of abilities, within character. That means Spiderman won't kill his opponent, but he will NOT job to those weaker than him either. He will go for the win in the quickest way possible.

Or at least that's what how I got it. The word bloodlust is not to be taken too literally.

Dinalfos, read the quote. It says that it's not standard. Bloodlust means, literally, out for blood. The general rule is that the fighters are in tip-top shape, but not that they're going for the throat.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The problem being that you're ignoring the inconsistency in the opposing character, be it WW, Captain Marvel or MM, created by them being harmed by someone grossly inadequate to do so. They've been reduced. Being in a fight with this particular character, in this example Batman, has caused them to lose the speed they normally exhibit that would allow them to simply avoid the kick, or the durability they normally exhibit to simply take it without feeling a thing. If this is plot induced - which it often is - then it is PIS, and will continue to be PIS.

Everyone knows particular characters have jobber auras.

Also all logic is not devoid in comics, just as all physics are not devoid. Common sense shouldn't be compromised for ludicrous things repeated two or three times in decades of comics.

obviously not all logic is devoid, but logic cannot be used in a vacuum to settle debates as it fails ultimately when a comic is probed too deeply -- as so often happens in the forum. and long ago i said common sense should be the ultimate arbiter. 😉

in any event, i was speaking of internal consistency of a character or book. hypothetically, if bats ko'd people like ww all the time, that is consistent with his character, and therefore, when it happens, logically it may make no sense, but common sense turned upon the comic world tells me that i can't just cry PIS. if we swap points of view and see that ww is NOT ko'd often by someone of batman's level we can assume 1 of 2 things is happening: batman is somehow 'special' and is capable of ko'ing someone not usually able to be ko'd by people of his level, or ww is jobbing/falling prey to PIS. but if bat's consistently ko's characters of her level, i choose the former explanation. why? because i hate calling PIS, mostly, but also because he has remained "in character" and proved time and again that he IS special irregardless of what real-world logic tells me SHOULD happen. likewise, in a reverse situation, if ww absolutely makes bats look like a fool and whoops him without effort -- that would also be fine. she has also maintained her established, internal consistency.

this example is convoluted because bats really doesn't consistently ko people like ww with a kick. that WOULD be out of character -- for both -- and imo be PIS.

it may sound as though i am doing a little "picking and choosing". meh, maybe i am. but i trust my knowledge of the characters i debate for to help me determine when internal consistency is maintained or broken. you said something about feats once every decade or so. by definition a feat accomplished so infrequently would be INCONSISTENT with how the character is portrayed. so i agree -- such a feat may well be PIS. my own loose definition allows me to filter out the extremes both on the high end and low end.

complex? maybe. but it works for me.