just curious....

Surreal, i guess i have a few responses to that. i like to discuss symbolism because i spent too long in AP English writing essays about that sort of thing and now thats the way my brain works. i have been trained to ignore whats going on at the surface and delve into the subtext. and i dont think there's anything wrong with that. there are tons of references, metaphors, allusions, etc, that t and t have stuck in there on purpose for educated people to mull over.

And mostly, like you said, the obvious stuff is obvious, and therefore, mostly goes without having to bring up/discuss all the time, because there aren't too many opinions you can have about facts. the fact is, we already saw the Will/Elizabeth ending in movie 1. it was great, it was sweet, but we already had it. why would i wait through 2 more movies of endless depth and emotional journey to get the same ending?

i just cant imagine sitting around discussing how the ending we already got is probably where this is all leading, and all the metaphors/allusions/etc are just in there as macguffins. sorry.

if you have w/e eveidence tell us i would like to see some

Kate, I sat through plenty of AP English classes myself. My Antonia was one of my favorite books, stuffed full of all kinds of symbolism that I had to write a ten page essay about.

So is the Secret Garden, The Lovely Bones, etc.

I KNOW about symbolism. I also know when symbolism may have a double meaning, or that writers will toss in symbolism sometimes to make you look and think one way, but it actually means something else.

And sometimes, what is taken as symbolism is actually nothing at all. As one of the writers for this movie said, "Sometimes a canon is just a canon". Not everything that you view as symbolic is in fact, symbolic.

Now why would the writers make you go through an emotional journey, only to have the two people who started out together end up together at the very end? Because the characters have grown, have learned some things about themselves, and have learned that in the end, love conquers all.

The emotional journey and painful choices that will be made sharpens and strengthens their love, and seeing their emotions and actions play out will bring us, the audience with them. Two people love each other, then shatter their trust and each other by their actions, and then somehow, despite the distance between them, manage to come back together and despite their faults, still love each other...what can be more poignant and wonderful than that?

To me, being shallow and 'hot' is not nearly as wonderful and interesting as a deeper, more meaningful romance (not just love, not just lust, not just sex, but ROMANCE) between two characters.

yes sometimes a canon is just a canon, but sinking wedding dresses, keys that get more screentime than actors, hearts buried in chests, symbolic pirate songs, magic compasses, costumes that dictate character actions, etc, all have meaning or they wouldn't bother with them. we don't know what that meaning is- whether its pointing to either ship-- that's why we discuss them. We explore them and get opinions. Certainly not everything will carry blatant symbolism, but some things will. So its definately worth it to explore that.

"Will and Elizabeth are engaged". fact. not much you can do to discuss or explore that. yeah its important, but i for one don't have much to say about it. they're engaged. end of discussion.

and i do think most sparrabethers believe there could a very deep, meaningful romance and partnership between Captain Jack and Elizabeth. the "hot" factor is not the basis of the argument, its just the cherry on the sundae. It chiefly because of the depth seen between the two characters that interest was sparked at all. i definately wouldn't say it all happened because they are "hot".

and pardon me, but i don't exactly see this as a "love conquers all" story or any kind of fairytale at all. it has different rules, different themes, etc. it's a pirate film, and follows that trend accordingly. not to say true love won't be important to the story, but i just doubt they would twist everything to make a "love conquers all" statement, after so clearly destroying characters' lives, morality, ideals, etc, for the sake of "what a man can do, and what a man can't do", and the ability of someone to risk people's lives, seduce others' women, sell their soul, etc, and still be considered a good man, a man worth saving/making the hero.

and Secret Garden is one of my fav. books ever, love it!!!! 🙂 so enchanting.

The Secret Garden is the best book ever! I read it at least once a month. *ggg* Same with Little Women . What happened to writers like that? The language they use is simply superb.

At any rate, what is the deep connection and love that J/E shippers think will happen with J/E? I truly don't see it as anything beyond well...heat. Yeah, they have something in common personality-wise, but I think that they'd be driving each other mad by the end of a week. That could, of course, change in the next film...

But I don't think it will.

As for the idea of they won't make it such a typical ending...no, there won't be a typical ending. A typical ending is what you had in CotBP. What you will have here is two individuals who are not perfect after all, learning to love and accept their other half for also not being perfect.

Also, I didn't say that there was a 'true love' element at the ending. Just that love conquers all...and I do mean it will conquer all. All the characters will be spiraling down into utter darkness and perhaps despair. They could lose their souls, their lives, and possibly the love of others.

What will make the ending interesting won't be solely whether or not Will and Elizabeth make amends and get married. It will be whether love and caring and the light that each person carries will be enough to conquer that darkness that is in them. This is sort of getting away from W/E now, but the point is, it isn't just a fairy tale ending...it will probably be an ending filled with justice, as well as injustice, with love and with heartache, but in the end, it will be all about love overcoming all obsticals.

That doesn't mean that there's a happily ever after involved.

BTW, have you read "The Lovely Bones"? If not, you absolutely must. It is one of the most fantastic books I have ever read!

i think the deep connection has a lot to do with emotional vulnerability they often experience around each other (signified by Elizabeth often being in unproper attire, and Jack being without his hat or effects) such as the island, the pearl, the kiss, etc. According to Jung, water/oceans sumbolize unconscious desires. So what I feel is that their first meeting is pretty symbolic--- Elizabeth has fallen into the water after the restrictions of society nearly killed her by not allowing her to breath. Jack is going along being Jack, but when she falls, he hands all his most valuble possessions to some navy idiots and dives right in. once there, he removes the weight of society by ripping off her dress, brings her to land, removes the corset, sees the pirate medallion, and then gets arrested for it. Unconsious desires? Prhaps Jack is ready to trade in his "freedom" for something else, like a lasting relationship. Perhaps Elizabeth is ready to trade her "good girl" image for adventure. Jack sees the medallion on her--- just as he sees her pirate nature within.

all the scenes between them seem to follow that pattern of really deep interaction going on--- not just between Jack and Elizabeth, but within themselves. All their inner conflict is actively and materially shown in their interaction with the other person. Jack's main inner conflict centers around him trying to squelch the "good man" within and obtain freedom. Elizabeth's main inner conflict centers around her desire for freedom and adventure being checked by her victorian morality and the expectations of society. they are both going with their instincts around each other. it doesnt always add up to bliss or a perfect ending, but its thrilling, its ingenius, its addicting.

I think people settled for the L/W relationship in one because it was disney, and because they had pushed the envelope on so many other points of the story. i went in to movie 2 fully expecting to see ELizabeth and Will continue their relationship quietly amidst some new fun adventure. once those expectations were ruined and the writers picked up running with "it would never had worked between us, darling", i was hooked. not because j/l was most logical (liz and will are still engaged and certainly still love each other)... but because it sparked my imagination beyond a physical connection and into a deep almost spiritual connection.

i know that was a lot of rambling but do you get why there is depth there now?

i havent read the lovely bones but i have heard great things about it. Little WOmen!!! i was just thinking i wanted to read that again this morning. brilliance. sigh... have you read the Screwtape Letters?

you both are right!! and lovely bones is good and so is secret garden and little women. lol i love those kinds of books you guys should try echoes by daniel steel it is really good.

anyways love does conquer all and the thing is Jack has fallen in love and liz loves them both. Also as Kate said the fact that they even made it seem like Jack and liz were a couple blew the audiance away it was magnifant brilliant. I think it is more on who liz is going to choose who she feels best with and it doesn't mean she is going to choose Wil becuz she is engaged to him and not Jack becuz he is a pirate it all depands on what guy takes her breath away and from eveidence on DMC it showed that Jack does exactly that!