Lumiya vs. Yoda
Well, Lumiya gave Luke a tough fight in Tempest, but I didn't get the impression that Luke was going full out against her and I don't think that in a fair environment (Lumiya was mind controlling the innocent people to stand in Luke's way) Luke would have had so much trouble. So, how would Yoda do against Lumiya in the following environments?
1. The same bar Luke fought against her in.
2. On some ice field on Hoth.
3. In the Jedi Library.
That fight scene in Tempest was absolutely ridiculous. It ruined the book, completely. At the beginning, Alema and Lumiya were having an outrageously difficult time with Lobi, and yet, Lumiya is able to give Luke hell at the end?
Inconsistencies galore.
Though, yes, it showed her using her cunning to use hostages and such in the fight against him - and he did dominate her despite his injuries.
That said, she's not "supposed" to be any more powerful than RotJ Vader at best.
I'd say Yoda tears her up.
Yeah, the fight at the end did knock a star and a half off the books rating, as did the lack of Boba Fett, but I can see why it was necessary to make the fight turn out the way it did. I'd be just as mad, if not more so than I am now, to have paid for a book in which Luke blasts Lumiya to shreds in 3 seconds. That would just suck. Asajj was a cool addition though, but she still didn't make up for Boba's absence. This is one of Denning's worst books.
So, as a parallel fight to this one, for those who think that Lumiya would lose against just Yoda, stick Alema in there two (without her gay dart gun).
Yeah, the fight at the end did knock a star and a half off the books rating, as did the lack of Boba Fett, but I can see why it was necessary to make the fight turn out the way it did. I'd be just as mad, if not more so than I am now, to have paid for a book in which Luke blasts Lumiya to shreds in 3 seconds. That would just suck. Asajj was a cool addition though, but she still didn't make up for Boba's absence. This is one of Denning's worst books.
I know. It just pisses me off with the major inconsistencies with authors. That is the whole issue when you switch them up in a series. Like I said before, Timothy Zahn felt like Luke was becoming like "Superman" so he intentionally weakened him in the Hand of Thrawn duology - so that he and Mara had trouble with a single droideka.
Asajj? I thought it was Aurra...
Anyways, they should have had some of Lumiya's henchmen attack him, too, and Alema. Or they simply should've made it clear, Luke >>> Lumiya in a straight up fight.
So, as a parallel fight to this one, for those who think that Lumiya would lose against just Yoda, stick Alema in there two (without her gay dart gun).
Lobi dominated them both for a while. She was really good, but she was no Yoda. He comfortably beats them.
I don't think that you can logically call Lumiya as bad as ROTJ Vader. Yes, she had an advantage in the fight, but the people she was using in the bar kept Luke from hitting her, they didn't really help her attack him, yet even with his shoto (which appears to be very important to have in a fight against someone with a Force Whip, and is something Yoda lacks) she was able to sever his dominate hand and give him a serious side injury. She's definately no pushover.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think that you can logically call Lumiya as bad as ROTJ Vader. Yes, she had an advantage in the fight, but the people she was using in the bar kept Luke from hitting her, they didn't really help her attack him, yet even with his shoto (which appears to be very important to have in a fight against someone with a Force Whip, and is something Yoda lacks) she was able to sever his dominate hand and give him a serious side injury. She's definately no pushover.
Neither is RotJ Vader. Seriously, guys, 80% of Sidious isn't weak.
As far as Lumiya is concerned, you're right, I can't come off and say that. But she is in the same boat as he is, you see. Except she didn't have anything close to Anakin's potential. That, and she obviously wasn't powerful enough to kill him or the Emperor.
You also forget. The LotF books and their authors cite Vader as an example of power. In fact, Luke's visions of the "hooded man" remind him of Vader's power and strength in the dark side.
I feel like busting out some math crap for a moment.
Alright, well lets say that she's 80% as powerful as Vader, as she has more experince by this time to make up for her having less potential and she also has a weapon that gives her a serious advantage over convention lightsaber users. That means she 64% as strong as Sidious give or take a little. Now, by ROTJ, Sidious is stronger than Yoda was as of ROTS. Lets be conservative and say he was 30% stronger than he had been in ROTS. That puts Lumiya at about 83% as strong ROTS Sidious. I'd personally still consider this low for her, but I think it's a good bottom line for her power levels. With Alema, the fight could go in the duo's favor or Lumiya might be able to win it on her own in the bar setting.
(Feel free to not reply to the above. I felt like going on a math rant.)
Lobi dominated them both for a while. She was really good, but she was no Yoda. He comfortably beats them.
I never really say Lobi as domintaing the fight at any time. She got the upper hand for a moment with Alema made a mistake and got in Lumiya's way, but the fight was solidly in the darksider's favor for the most part. Lobi DID do her best to flee the fight.
Asajj? I thought it was Aurra...
YAY for typos! Sorry about that. I meant Aurra.
Except she didn't have anything close to Anakin's potential. That, and she obviously wasn't powerful enough to kill him or the Emperor.
How do we know that she never had anything close to Anakin's potential? From what we've seen, she's extremely powerful and her potential must be extremely high for having been as strong as she was with only half her body.
Also note that she has been alive for four decades since Vader died. Saying that LotF Lumiya must be weaker than Vader because her ROTJ self was is the same as saying that LotF Luke must be weaker than Vader because his ROTJ self was weaker too. It's illogical.
Glentract, Lumiya also got pwned in a Force fight against Nelani. In the Force? She's likely just a big pile of crap - save for the Force Phantom stuff. That's probably why she just sticks to her lightwhip in battle. Her Force Phantom technique seems to be ritualistic in nature, and extremely taxing.
Anakin's potential is twice that of Palpatine's. I hardly think she measures up anywhere near his - or Palpatine's own for that matter.
Anakin's potential, is far off and away any other Force User in history.
Lumiya outright said-and this backs up what Lucas and RODV have said- losing most of your body-as Lumiya has- destroys your potential. In Vader's case? 120 percent. And Lumiya got it just as bad as ani did if not worse.
Lumiya got the upper hand because Luke was afraid for his wife. He demolished her over thirty years back and it's made clear early on Lumiya hasn't gotten much better. She fights dirty because that's the only way she can survive against opponents.
To date, she couldn't stop being shot by a half-Nagai, she's been beaten by Mara...The only one she's been known to really kill was Flint and even that could've been an ambush
Glentract, Lumiya also got pwned in a Force fight against Nelani. In the Force?
Maybe Nelani was just that good.
Lumiya outright said-and this backs up what Lucas and RODV have said- losing most of your body-as Lumiya has- destroys your potential. In Vader's case? 120 percent. And Lumiya got it just as bad as ani did if not worse.
Well I'm no maths whiz, but I'm pretty sure Vader lost 60% of his potential.
Anakin's potential, is far off and away any other Force User in history.
Is there actually any proof for this?
Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Nope. Anakin's full potential was 200% of Sidious, and as Vader it was only 80% of Sidious (still no weakling). It was lowered by 120%.
It doesn't work like that. Let's give Sidious' potential a figure of 100. That would mean that Anakin's potential went from 200 to 80. To work out the percentage decrease, you calculate the difference/the original X 100. 120/200 X 100 = 60. So it's 60%.
Maybe Nelani was just that good.
Or not.
Anything to support that? Jacen didn't seem to be particularly proud, threatened, or impressed by her skills.
Aside from her Force Phantoms, which required intense energy and wasn't something performed in combat, Lumiya did what? She's less than RotJ Vader in terms of Force potential, and there's nothing to suggest that she was a master of the Force - which is likely why she used her lightwhip in combat situations, and only used the Force on one occasion in the LotF series.
Or not.
O RLY?
Anything to support that?
She owned Lumiya in a force fight. 😛
Jacen didn't seem to be particularly proud, threatened, or impressed by her skills.
Well that's your opinion.
Aside from her Force Phantoms, which required intense energy and wasn't something performed in combat, Lumiya did what?
Absence of proof /= proof of absence. Just because she didn't do anything else spectacular with the force, doesn't mean she couldn't.
She's less than RotJ Vader in terms of Force potential
Cyborg Vader still has great potential, even if it is nothing compared to before.
and there's nothing to suggest that she was a master of the Force
Perhaps her force phantoms, you dumbass.
which is likely why she used her lightwhip in combat situations
Maybe it's because she's just better with a lightwhip.
and only used the Force on one occasion in the LotF series.
Have you even read LotF? She uses the force more than once, silly one.
O RLY?
Yes, really.
She owned Lumiya in a force fight. 😛
The point is that without cunning tactics and distractions on her side, Lumiya isn't that good in combat. She got served by Nelani in the Force fight, and Lobi handled her and Alema (after getting blasted by Force lightning) pretty damn well, and he even amputated her arm.
Well that's your opinion.
That'd be Jacen's, actually.
Absence of proof /= proof of absence. Just because she didn't do anything else spectacular with the force, doesn't mean she couldn't.
Yeah. Because losing a Force fight to a very young and inexperienced Jedi Knight is an obvious sign of immense strength of the Force in combat.
Cyborg Vader still has great potential, even if it is nothing compared to before.
What is your perception of "great". Remember, oh God of Debating, greatness is subjective - most especially in a case that we have nothing concrete to go on. His potential was nothing compared to Luke's, Leia's, Kyp's, or Sidious's own as far as that is concerned.
She has implied on several occasions that she is weaker than him.
Perhaps her force phantoms, you dumbass.
Lmao. Yes, that is to imply that she is a master of the dark side? Please. She didn't get complete training from Vader, who didn't get get complete training from Sidious. She flat out tells Jacen in Tempest that she doesn't have the potential to succeed. She goes on to say how her powers may not seem limited, they are, and Vader's powers didn't seem limited, except to the Emperor, who didn't have a limit to his power.
In Betrayal she tells Jacen that she can't master the dark side, and neither could Vader. 😉
Maybe it's because she's just better with a lightwhip.
Or maybe it's because she's lost to Luke before, as well as to Mara, and she simply isn't all that great with the Force in combat, and is forced to rely on her only decent skills - her swordmanship. Which wasn't exactly good enough to pwn Nelani, which Jacen did without difficulty.
Have you even read LotF? She uses the force more than once, silly one.
In combat? I must've missed something.