Poll
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Does being a vigilante make Batman a criminal?
I mean we all know that vigilantism is a crime and a vigilante is a person whom takes the law into his or her own hands by avenging a crime, sometimes violently and without recourse to lawful procedures.
But what do you think...Does Batman's lifestyle make him a criminal?
Yes. He is a criminal. No queston about it. If it wasn't for the fact that he lives in a fictional world of fictional crap, he'd be considered as much of a criminal as the average skell who's committed several hundred odd offenses... as Black Mask pointed out in War Games: Attacking a SUSPECTED criminal is a crime!
Batman is a criminal in the sense that any superhero is a criminal, I suppose.
I mean, Superman, for example, is so powerful that nobody thinks about him as a vigilante, but he is: a citizen who goes around beating up and apprehending criminals without any official position that would give him the right to do so.
In one sense, he is, because he does not have any contractual agreements with law enforcement or military agencies. In another sense, mentioned above with the citizens arrest, he isn't. I think it depends on who's in charge at the time, lol. To a man like Gordon, he isn't. To a man that is jealous or pissed about him, he is.
No. Citizens have the right to detain someone they witness commiting a crime, or make a citizens arrest. They do not have the right to break into people's houses, which Batman does, or use violence while interrigating people, which Batman does, or even interrigate people at all, really; they certainly do not have the right to assault police officers or federal law officers (which Batman has done; e.g. Year One), they don't have the right to hack into people's computer systems (which Batman has Oracle do), they don't have the right ... well, you get the point.
Batman is a criminal. All superheroes who act without police sanctions are criminals, even those who aren't normally viewed as vigilantes (see my above post).
Of course, who cares? It's just a comic book.
Correction...Batman does NOT just break into places. If there is sufficient evidence of criminal actions or suspicion of a crime been committed he will enter. But also keep in mind he always tip Gordon of his investigations. So he does work with the police in order to stop a crime.
Yes! In Year One he was seen as menace by the GPD. But thanks to his work with Captain Gordon during those days. He gain trust and some of the rules were bend (not broken) so that Batman could continue his crime fighting crusade.
Did Batman EVER came close to breaking the law? Only once he came close to breaking International Law during the Death of Family storyline. Remenber? Joker kill Jason then becomes a Embassador for Iran....Superman had to be call in to keep Batman under watch.
Everytime someone wants to pin Batman as criminal vigilante. I'll keep remind you guys he always works with Gordon most of the time to fight crime.
technically, yes, Batman is a criminal. but hes not like other criminals, and theres a reason behind why he does what he does. and its to serve the people of Gotham and protect them because of what happened to his parents. really, hes a hero is what he is. if it wasnt for him, Gotham would have been long gone numerous times. and after all, theres still a line he never crosses, and thats becoming a murderer.
Batmans a criminal yes, but a criminal with integrity and good intentions.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Correction...Batman does NOT just break into places. If there is sufficient evidence of criminal actions or suspicion of a crime been committed he will enter. But also keep in mind he always tip Gordon of his investigations. So he does work with the police in order to stop a crime.Yes! In Year One he was seen as menace by the GPD. But thanks to his work with Captain Gordon during those days. He gain trust and some of the rules were bend (not broken) so that Batman could continue his crime fighting crusade.
Did Batman EVER came close to breaking the law? Only once he came close to breaking International Law during the Death of Family storyline. Remenber? Joker kill Jason then becomes a Embassador for Iran....Superman had to be call in to keep Batman under watch.
Everytime someone wants to pin Batman as criminal vigilante. I'll keep remind you guys he always works with Gordon most of the time to fight crime.
No. If you absolutely positively won't agree that Batman is a criminal without a specific example, he tourters a dude by threatening to jam his arm into a sander (or some form of moving machinery) in ... City of Crime, I think it was? Since even the police aren't allowed to do that to suspects, I hope you don't plan to argue that your nebulous, carte blanche "citizen's arrest" allows him to?
He broke into private property (possibly even the White House?) with Louis Lane to retreave some kriptonite. That was sure as hell illegal; Superman actually showed up and stopped them.
Speaking of the White House, in Public Enemies (Superman/Batman), he attacks government agents who are acting on direct orders from the President, and harbors a fugitive from justice.
He returns to Gotham in direct violation of a federal law after it's been declared No Man's Land. To make things worse, he later orders his agents to also break the law and return to Gotham.
In Batman 634 (or maybe 633?) Gotham specifically outlaws Batman's activity and orders the police to shoot him on sight. So everything he does between that issue and the issue where Gordon revokes that measure is illegal. In 633 they make false statements to the police .. illegal.
Oh, and do you suppose that Batman immediately turns over every single shred of evidence that he finds to the police? He'd better, because if, for example, he takes a piece of evidence from a crime-scene to the cave for analysis, that's withholding evidence, which is--you guessed it--illegal.
To pick a triviality, durring No Man's Land he pretends to be a police officer while helping Gordon's crew perform rescue efforts. Very nice, very noble. Impersonating a police officer is still a crime, though.
Oh yes; in the Murderer/Fugitive arc, Bruce Wayne breaks out of jail. That doesn't stop being illegal just because the man who does it happens to be innocent.
What should our next example be ... maybe the Outlaws miniseries, which he and his crew spend as fugitives from federal law officers? Possibly the time he got Catwoman to steal a disk from Luthor for him? How about the time he punished a murder he couldn't get convicted by kidnapping him each year and taking him to the grave of his victim? I already mentioned the computer crimes he has one of his people perform.
Those were off the top of my head; I could find others, if it would make you happy. I have no idea why you'd choose to argue this point--I don't think anybody here is saying that because he's a criminal, Batman is somehow a badguy--but Batman clearly is a criminal, by real-world standards.
Originally posted by Gregory
No. If you absolutely positively won't agree that Batman is a criminal without a specific example, he tourters a dude by threatening to jam his arm into a sander (or some form of moving machinery) in ... City of Crime, I think it was? Since even the police aren't allowed to do that to suspects, I hope you don't plan to argue that your nebulous, carte blanche "citizen's arrest" allows him to?
He had to resort to those actions to get the truth out of the guy. A girl was in danger of dying. You telling me that wasn't important when it came to save the life of a person? Did you ever saw Dirty Harry? Yeah, remenber how he had to extract the truth out of scorpio? When a life is in Danger Batman has to use those measures to get the criminal talking.
Originally posted by Gregory
He broke into private property (possibly even the White House?) with Louis Lane to retreave some kriptonite. That was sure as hell illegal; Superman actually showed up and stopped them.Speaking of the White House, in Public Enemies (Superman/Batman), he attacks government agents who are acting on direct orders from the President, and harbors a fugitive from justice.
I don't recall this one. But if it was during when the time Lex Luthor was the president...then hell yeah! Well done! Even I would have done the same thing.
Originally posted by Gregory
He returns to Gotham in direct violation of a federal law after it's been declared No Man's Land. To make things worse, he later orders his agents to also break the law and return to Gotham.
Yes! And do you recall the JLA was also keeping any supervillains out of Gotham? Do you also recall they had to do this in order to secure Gotham from falling into the powers of the most sinester minds in the DCU? Gotham became a huge target. Batman had to bend the rules to protect the city at any costs. Even the JLA supported him on this decision.
Originally posted by Gregory
In Batman 634 (or maybe 633?) Gotham specifically outlaws Batman's activity and orders the police to shoot him on sight. So everything he does between that issue and the issue where Gordon revokes that measure is illegal. In 633 they make false statements to the police .. illegal.
I'm going to re-read those myself. However, if Gordon did help him then it would be consider undercover investigation. In which case Batman can participate.
Originally posted by Gregory
Oh, and do you suppose that Batman immediately turns over every single shred of evidence that he finds to the police? He'd better, because if, for example, he takes a piece of evidence from a crime-scene to the cave for analysis, that's withholding evidence, which is--you guessed it--illegal.
Uh, hello? Haven't I mention before he works with Gordon? Have you notice how the two of them always have a meeting prior or after a case? They share information.
Originally posted by Gregory
To pick a triviality, durring No Man's Land he pretends to be a police officer while helping Gordon's crew perform rescue efforts. Very nice, very noble. Impersonating a police officer is still a crime, though.
Are you serious Gregory? No Man's Land was a disaster event. How can you say he was impersonating a police officer and try to help victims? Does that mean the former overweights the latter?
Originally posted by Gregory
Oh yes; in the Murderer/Fugitive arc, Bruce Wayne breaks out of jail. That doesn't stop being illegal just because the man who does it happens to be innocent.
Exactly! Bruce Wayne NOT Batman. Remenber? two different characters sharing the same body. He ahd break out of Jail. It was a strategy to get to the person responsible for framing Wayne by means of using Batman. So that's why Bruce becomes a fugitive.
Back in Armageddon 2001 on a trip to the future. Batman witness a possible future in which he is framed for killing the Penguin. Instead of running away he turns himself to police. He is trial and sentence to death. Batman fully accepts the punishment. Later it was found it was the Joker who did it. When Robin realise this he tip off Batman in Jail. Then with the help of Anarchy he escapes to capture and prove it was the Joker the real killer. Notice here Batman was a law abiding citizen. But because of his belief in Justice he had to go after the Joker.
Tell me...is Batman wrong here?
Originally posted by Gregory
What should our next example be ... maybe the Outlaws miniseries, which he and his crew spend as fugitives from federal law officers? Possibly the time he got Catwoman to steal a disk from Luthor for him? How about the time he punished a murder he couldn't get convicted by kidnapping him each year and taking him to the grave of his victim? I already mentioned the computer crimes he has one of his people perform.
Oracle is NOT a criminal! Very ill inform you trully are on this one. Her network is connected with the JLA files. Last I heard the JLA are NOT criminals.
Originally posted by Gregory
Those were off the top of my head; I could find others, if it would make you happy. I have no idea why you'd choose to argue this point--I don't think anybody here is saying that because he's a criminal, Batman is somehow a badguy--but Batman clearly is a criminal, by real-world standards.
I chose to argue this because you're putting yourself in the position Harvey Dent did back in Year One. He tried anything to get Batman convicted of a crime. You're not doing anything new here. It's been done before. All you're doing is just recite the same story.
We all know this is just fiction. But just because is fiction it doesn't mean you're going to be changing the status of a character. That's just bogus.
He had to resort to those actions to get the truth out of the guy. A girl was in danger of dying. You telling me that wasn't important when it came to save the life of a person? Did you ever saw Dirty Harry? Yeah, remenber how he had to extract the truth out of scorpio? When a life is in Danger Batman has to use those measures to get the criminal talking.
He had to do it to save a girls' life. Yes. I saw Dirty Harry; you might recall that Dirty Harry was disciplined for torturing that bad guy because it was against the law; they had to let him go because of it. Harry didn't think that law was sensible in that case, either, but it didn't stop being the law.
In No Man's Land, he impersonated a police officer. I'm perfectly serious. Did I say it was a bad thing? Just illegal.
And indeed, good for him for breaking into the White House. Again, I'm not saying Batman is somehow a badguy here; I'm saying he doesn't always follow the laws. You might to it, I might do it, anyone might do it, but anybody who does do it should be aware that he's breaking the law by doing it.
Oracle has hacked into Lex Luthor's files, I think. That's illegal. She can't just be using JLA files, because she was active before she'd have had access to those.
And I believe that Gordon had already retired by War Crimes, so if Batman was working with anyone, it wasn't him.
There's a differense between me and Dent; Dent thought that because Batman was a criminal, he should be convicted. I think that Batman's a criminal, but does so much good it would be silly to try to arrest him.
Damn, this is a tough question, Batman definetly breaks some laws, but I wouldn't necessairly call him a criminal, we all break laws, like speeding, I'm sure we all have gone over the speed limit at one point or another, but if we weren't pulled over for it, does that make us criminals for going over the speed limit and not getting caught, or stealing food so you don't starve. If you're starving and steal food, you caused a crime, but I wouldn't say you were wrong for committing that act.
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf.
He had to resort to those actions to get the truth out of the guy. A girl was in danger of dying. You telling me that wasn't important when it came to save the life of a person? Did you ever saw Dirty Harry? Yeah, remenber how he had to extract the truth out of scorpio? When a life is in Danger Batman has to use those measures to get the criminal talking
Yea, and Harry extracting the truth caused Scorpio to be released from prison, and Dirty was suspended, and its been awhile since I seen that movie, but didn't the little girl still die?. Now I'm not saying Harry shouldn't have done what he done, I would like to think I would do the same thing in that situation, but since he didn't do it by "the book" reprocutions were taken, but that doesn't mean what he did wasn't right.
Originally posted by brazLike V 🙂 ...........sort of. 🙁
technically, yes, Batman is a criminal. but hes not like other criminals, and theres a reason behind why he does what he does. and its to serve the people of Gotham and protect them because of what happened to his parents. really, hes a hero is what he is. if it wasnt for him, Gotham would have been long gone numerous times. and after all, theres still a line he never crosses, and thats becoming a murderer.Batmans a criminal yes, but a criminal with integrity and good intentions.
Originally posted by wuTa
Damn, this is a tough question, Batman definetly breaks some laws, but I wouldn't necessairly call him a criminal, we all break laws, like speeding, I'm sure we all have gone over the speed limit at one point or another, but if we weren't pulled over for it, does that make us criminals for going over the speed limit and not getting caught, or stealing food so you don't starve. If you're starving and steal food, you caused a crime, but I wouldn't say you were wrong for committing that act..
Yea, and Harry extracting the truth caused Scorpio to be released from prison, and Dirty was suspended, and its been awhile since I seen that movie, but didn't the little girl still die?. Now I'm not saying Harry shouldn't have done what he done, I would like to think I would do the same thing in that situation, but since he didn't do it by "the book" reprocutions were taken, but that doesn't mean what he did wasn't right.
Are you honostly comparing breaking the speed limit to brreaking someone's back? pah!!
I voted for "no" His crimes are most often in defence of the defenceless -criminal arrest. The rest are... well... ok that stuff is illegal. But I think that a good lawyer could succesfuly plead self defence in 90 percent of the cases.
This is a good question, though. Civil war is a very good issue, indeed.
In the comic world No he is not because he has law enforcement officials blessing to help them chase and catch criminals.However he should have been a wanted criminal in the horrible Burton Batman versions because Batman is only authorized to capture criminals by the police,he's not permitted to take the law into his own hands and murder people in cowardly ways like he did.In Nolans Batman Begins he wasnt a criminal because he did not kill people.