Originally posted by queeq
Shallow but correct. Deepness is never the judge for truth.
I'm not saying it is, however if you never break the surface of the water, you're shure as hell going to have a hard time seeing what's underneath.
As you said, maybe there's nothing there. But deep truths are more accurate than shallow ones. Maybe we should at least look and make sure we have a good grasp on the situation before we come to judgements. Baconian philosophy.
Yes, because comparing ficition and fact is just a brilliant move.
Apparently I'm not mentally mature enough to have my own opinion. The concepts that support my arguemets were addressed in the films, no matter how many times you chose to bury your head in the sand.
"Have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side?"
Looks like someone needs to watch the films again. Or at least learn what fiction and art are and what they mean to society.
They were ignorant. They abandonded their principles. They served an evil entity and were totally complacent in confronting the true threat to the Republic.
The Order deserved its death, unquestionably. When the Jedi failed to be Jedi and became something else, that is when they lost their credibility.
I really don't think Bush=Palpatine and there are far to many inconsitancies to make an accurate comparison.
The Jedi knew Palpatine was a threat long before they knew he was a Sith. Yet they did nothing to stop him and continued to support him. They were not average people, they posessed tremendous power in the Republic. They not only supported Palps, they enforced his policies and completely abandonded their moral authority.
Originally posted by AllianceEvery soldier in Nazi Germany then? It was just an example.
I really don't think Bush=Palpatine and there are far to many inconsitancies to make an accurate comparison.The Jedi knew Palpatine was a threat long before they knew he was a Sith. Yet they did nothing to stop him and continued to support him. They were not average people, they posessed tremendous power in the Republic. They not only supported Palps, they enforced his policies and completely abandonded their moral authority.
The Jedi knew he was a threat to the stability and security of the Republic? I can see that around the ROTS time, the whole spying on the Chancellor thing, but when else did they see it? (I really don't know, so pardon my ignorance).
Even so, what could they do? "Sorry, we think your a threat, we're gonna have to throw our values to the wind and take you down, despite lack of evidence." And unless your saying the Jedi take physical control of the Palpatine-supporting Senate, what could they when they had only speculation?
Originally posted by Tangible God
Every soldier in Nazi Germany then? It was just an example.
Originally posted by Tangible God
The Jedi knew he was a threat to the stability and security of the Republic? I can see that around the ROTS time, the whole spying on the Chancellor thing, but when else did they see it? (I really don't know, so pardon my ignorance).
"The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." TPM
Establishes that the Senate, the core of the Republic is in disarray.
In AOTC Palpatine assumes direct command of the Senate. That is when action should have been taken.
In ROTS its very well noted that Palpatine has been in office way past his terms, yet again nothing was done.
Law no longer ruled the Republic. That was obvious. People like to talk about the strong moral tones in SW. The fact that Padmé had to call a vote of no confidence on Valorum should be a blinding example to people who use this philosophy that the Republic was gone, even before Palps was in power. Weakness created opportunity.
The weakness should have been the first sign.
in AOTC the Jedi just accept a fully equipped army, orderd by a Jedi that Yoda clearly didn't like and already paid by the Republic. I can't think of a greater red flashing light. Palpatine certainly seemed comfortable witht the situation at the end.
in ROTS the Republic is clearly in disarray. Probly too late to effectively solve everyhting, but the Jedi have been fighting for three years.
This is all gathered from the small percentage of the films that deal with the Clone Wars or politics. Its quite obvious that the Jedi are not doing thier job. It becomes clear in AOTC that the Jedi have no problem over-looking issues. It becomes clear in ROTS that they did nothing but serve an evil purpose, for which most paid with thier lives.
Judging from Episode III, I can only imagine the extend of the devastation that the Clone Wars caused on a multitude of planets. I'd hardly call that a moral authority.
Originally posted by AllianceThey weren't exactly ignorant of the situation now were they?
Again no. But what about Nazi Leaders?
Originally posted by AllianceAnd Palpatine ended that corruption, didn't he? Probably something Jedi values would want, end of corruption.
"The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." TPMEstablishes that the Senate, the core of the Republic is in disarray.
Originally posted by AllianceWhen the Senate is as inactive as it is, direct control is needed, and if that control is by someone who seems sincerely troubled about having it, what's the problem?
In AOTC Palpatine assumes direct command of the Senate. That is when action should have been taken.
Originally posted by AllianceLike I said, around ROTS, Clone War times they were getting suspicious. But they thought the Sith were controlling Palpatine, they just didn't know who. That ignorance doesn't mean they deserve death.
In ROTS its very well noted that Palpatine has been in office way past his terms, yet again nothing was done.
Originally posted by AllianceA vote of no confidence in a weak, non-Sith orientated Chancellor. If I wanted action done to save innocent lives and stop apparent evil, I'd have done what she did. Valorum deserved to go.
Law no longer ruled the Republic. That was obvious. People like to talk about the strong moral tones in SW. The fact that Padmé had to call a vote of no confidence on Valorum should be a blinding example to people who use this philosophy that the Republic was gone, even before Palps was in power. Weakness created opportunity.The weakness should have been the first sign.
Originally posted by AllianceWhen the galaxy and Republic is under military threat from a Seperatist faction which WOULD win if they attacked, why shouldn't the Jedi and the Republic's leader accept a Clone Army which was commissioned by a long dead Jedi Master? From the ignorant point of view, it makes total sense. And that's what the Jedi were, ignorant. Ignorant of Palpatine's true identity, and ignorant of virtually every major Sithly step taken.
in AOTC the Jedi just accept a fully equipped army, orderd by a Jedi that Yoda clearly didn't like and already paid by the Republic. I can't think of a greater red flashing light. Palpatine certainly seemed comfortable witht the situation at the end.
Originally posted by AllianceEveryone knows many of the Jedi didn't make effective military leaders. But as the only organization in the Republic with any combat experience, as well as an oath to preserve the Republic, as well as Force abilities, becoming the de facto leaders of the armies isn't surprising.
in ROTS the Republic is clearly in disarray. Probly too late to effectively solve everyhting, but the Jedi have been fighting for three years.This is all gathered from the small percentage of the films that deal with the Clone Wars or politics. Its quite obvious that the Jedi are not doing thier job. It becomes clear in AOTC that the Jedi have no problem over-looking issues. It becomes clear in ROTS that they did nothing but serve an evil purpose, for which most paid with thier lives.
Judging from Episode III, I can only imagine the extend of the devastation that the Clone Wars caused on a multitude of planets. I'd hardly call that a moral authority.
All my point is, is that the Jedi were ignorant and deceived by the Sith, just like everyone else. But that ignorance doesn't mean they deserve death, it means they deserve to be enlightened. If we reacted like that, we'd (sorry to use the Nazis again) have killed much of the German populace who knew nothing about the Death Camps.