Darth Bane vs. Exar Kun

Zephiel7, I don't recall the issue appearing in PoD, but BotS.

@Glentract, their atmospheres were no longer as close as they were thousands of years ago, and Bane was confirmed to have flown via a beast across the atmospheres, and the only explanation is that he pulled the moon out of orbit, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible. Anyways, here's the exact quote, draw whatever you want from it:

'Now that he understood the depths of Sith powers, he thought he might even have control over worlds and moons, able to play with orbits and gravity like a child might play with colored balls.

Long ago, Dxun had grazed the planet Onderon, close enough that it was possible for creatures to pass across the conjoined atmosphere. Perhaps Bane could nudge the beast moon close enough so that he could travel to the nearby planet that filled the sky. In bloodshed and chaos, Darth Bane would go to Onderon ... and there he would find his apprentice. '

The fact that he believed himself powerful enough to do so alone kinda speaks volumes, Bane was never arrogant of his powers, to believe that he would have that kind of power is pretty incredible.

@AC, most of those alternatives you gave aren't actually valid, he can't have just found a ship or teleported because he was actually confirmed to have flown on top of a beast across the atmospheres, and the only way that would have been possible is if the atmospheres of Dxun and Onderon were brought close enough together.

Originally posted by Gideon
"A very distinct possibility" does not equal to cold hard fact, Zephiel. If AC and Glentract are right, and there is nothing that says that he yanked the moon out of orbit, then it isn't going to be included on a list of feats until it has been substantiated.

There's enough evidence to suggest that he pulled the moon out of orbit.

Originally posted by Gideon
"A very distinct possibility" does not equal to cold hard fact, Zephiel. If AC and Glentract are right, and there is nothing that says that he yanked the moon out of orbit, then it isn't going to be included on a list of feats until it has been substantiated.

But if Karapshyn implied that Bane would do it, but he just decided to stop the book there, then it is enough to substitute as hard fact. I am just inferring it.

Inferences are logical and reasonable conclusion of a fact not presented by direct evidence but which, by process of logic and reason, a trier of fact may conclude exists from the established facts.

Originally posted by Sexyback
There's enough evidence to suggest that he pulled the moon out of orbit.

Evidence stemming from his own thoughts, apparently, from the excerpt you provided. Suggestions and implications are fine, but they do not fill the void of fact, Planet. They do not provide the same support, and must be handled with a measure of skepticism. You were not keen on allowing "suggestions or implications" when it the subject was Sidious's power. Why should it be the case for Bane?

Originally posted by Gideon
Evidence stemming from his own thoughts, apparently, from the excerpt you provided.

But it's later confirmed in tNEGtC that Bane did actually fly across the atmospheres via a beast to find Zannah, and the only possible way for him to have done that was by pulling the atmospheres close enough together with the force.

Suggestions and implications are fine, but they do not fill the void of fact, Planet. They do not provide the same support, and must be handled with a measure of skepticism. You were not keen on allowing "suggestions or implications" when it the subject was Sidious's power. Why should it be the case for Bane?

'Cause Bane is badass and I'm a fanboy. 😐

But if Karapshyn implied that Bane would do it, but he just decided to stop the book there, then it is enough to substitute as hard fact. I am just inferring it.

No, Zephiel, it is not. But, we'll take a look at it. Provide the excerpt that the author "implied" that Bane would do it, and we'll judge from there. Likewise, implications are never equal to fact. Never. Not unless they are supported.

Sidious believed that he would discover Plagueis's lost secret. Are we to automatically infer that he did, simply because himself and Luceno implied that he would?

Inferences are logical and reasonable conclusion of a fact not presented by direct evidence but which, by process of logic and reason, a trier of fact may conclude exists from the established facts. [/B]

Inferences and logical deduction are to be made in the absence of fact. They help an argument, and they offer support, but they do not constitute as cold hard fact. They do not have the same effect and are not to be treated as such. Logical deduction can be refuted and disproved. Facts can't.

I need your sour creme on my chest, sexy back.

Originally posted by zephiel7
But if Karapshyn implied that Bane would do it, but he just decided to stop the book there, then it is enough to substitute as hard fact. I am just inferring it.

Inferences are logical and reasonable conclusion of a fact not presented by direct evidence but which, by process of logic and reason, a trier of fact may conclude exists from the established facts.

Zephiel7, I don't recall the issue appearing in PoD, but BotS.
Are you sure you're not confusing Karapshyn with KJA?
Also, you sound like a PoD fan, so just so you know, you can actually ask DK questions at the starwars.com messageboards here - http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=256530&tstart=25 .

But it's later confirmed in tNEGtC that Bane did actually fly across the atmospheres via a beast to find Zannah, and the only possible way for him to have done that was by pulling the atmospheres close enough together with the force.

Did it say as much? Or could the atmospheres have merged from orbit, on their own accord?

'Cause Bane is badass and I'm a fanboy. 😐

Lol. 😛

I'll remember that the next time you call "me" a fanboy. Seriously, though, you can't pick and choose, Planet. Either implications and suggestions are feasible and to be used in an argument, or they aren't. This is in all arguments. If it applies to Bane, it applies to Sidious. Period.

Did it say as much? Or could the atmospheres have merged from orbit, on their own accord?

Not possible, the moon and planet had been slowly pulling away from eachother for thousands of years, only an outside force would be able to push them closer together.

Lol.

I'll remember that the next time you call "me" a fanboy. Seriously, though, you can't pick and choose, Planet. Either implications and suggestions are feasible and to be used in an argument, or they aren't. This is in all arguments. If it applies to Bane, it applies to Sidious. Period.

Well if there really was something just like this that applied to Sidious, I'm guessing I probably would accept it. It's basically too likely to have happened to just ignore it. Also, I'd like to point out that Bane was 27 tops by BotS, with less than three years experience of actively using the darkside. Pretty impressive.

Provide the excerpt that the author "implied" that Bane would do it, and we'll judge from there.

Unfortunately, I have lent the book to one of my good friends, an avid Star Wars/Spiderman fan. I willl at some point get it and then I will provide. I was going by memory, but I am hardly infallible 😛.

Likewise, implications are never equal to fact. Never. Not unless they are supported.

Inferences can be enough. Scientific theories are a combination of inductive reasoning and inferences. Newton's three laws of forces. Can we be sure that it is 100% true? No, science is inductive, hundred percent certainty is not guaranteed. Do we consider them as fact in the fields of engineering? Hells yes.

Sidious believed that he would discover Plagueis's lost secret.

Two different beasts. Bane decided to pull the moon. The most likely solution, and perhaps the only one, to the problem at hand is that Bane did nudge the moon. KJA, seems to suggest that Bane did.

KJA did not suggest that Sidious actually discovered the secret. There has been evidence actually, showing that Sidious indeed did not discover due to an untimely death via father-son pwnage.

Zephiel7, I don't recall the issue appearing in PoD, but BotS.
Are you sure you're not confusing Karapshyn with KJA?

You may be right. I do not have the book on me as of now, so I might be jumbling stuff inside my head.

Also, you sound like a PoD fan, so just so you know, you can actually ask DK questions at the starwars.com messageboards here - http://forums.starwars.com/thread.j...0&tstart=25 .

Awesome man. Thanks for the link. I do like PoD and I am somewhat curious on Bane. Such a great SL, not enough exposure 😛.

I don't know what the argument is about. Bane's own thoughts are nowhere near conclusive enough to be facts, as Escape stated. And there's very little proof that Bane did what you said he did, Planet.

Yea, he only planned to move the moon, did we see him do it? no, he could have raided the mandalorian camp and carjacked a space craft and flew to onderon

It's too likely to have happened to just be ignored.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yea, he only planned to move the moon, did we see him do it? no, he could have raided the mandalorian camp and carjacked a space craft and flew to onderon

It was confirmed that Bane flew on top of a beast across the atmospheres, and that wouldn't be possible unless the atmospheres were brought closer together, and seeing as Bane did plan it...

Again, you are basing your assumption on what Bane planned. There's no logical deduction, nor cold hard facts here.

Provide an alternative. What else could he have done? There's no real other way around it.

You must have forgotten the rules of debate. There is no 'provide the alternative'. You are telling us, without any proof I might add, that Bane performed feat X. You want to throw in a logical deduction, and that's as far as you can get. However it's not a logical deduction, but pure speculation on your part. I'm not required to throw in an alternative, because there could be millions, and the burden of proof isn't on me, so try again.

That's right Sexy, I've forgotten all the rules. 🙄

How about this, throw in one alternative, and I'll drop it.

No, he doesn't have too what do you not get about "its on YOU."