Why scientists are closer to God than you are.

Started by lord xyz3 pages

Originally posted by Alliance
No. This philosophy actually predates Darwin. Darwin is an iffy case, because he later went through an athiest-agnostic case when his kid died.

Darwin did use some elements of this philosophy, but it came out of its golden age by the time the Enlightnement rolled around.

But the thing is, the way I see it, you can't look at nature and think of a God, rather, you look at nature and realise that nature is how people came to be, not of a higher power. Everything we have is due to nature, there's too much evidence to prove other wise. If you think nature is proof of God, or shows how God works, then you clearly don't understand the laws of physics and think life or nature is a machine, a painting, a video game, or anything else that is created and can't create. Obviously life can create.

Can we state as an assumption that God exists?

But he doesn't....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But he doesn't....
So much for being Agnostic...

Originally posted by lord xyz
So much for being Agnostic...

God is not a person

Originally posted by Mindship
It sure is. Conversely, it is also often counter-quoted (again, taken out of context) by those who feel "religion," in any form, no matter what, is negative, that Science Alone (especially empirical science [insert regal trumpeting here]) saves the day. It doesn't. This is why I included context in my second post.
Somewhat strawman-ish. Religion, in the classical sense, has it's place; it can and has been utilised for positive and negative ends, and may or may not be a motivation for peoples' innovation and ingenuity in the sciences.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

I fail to see how this above is thoroughly lacking in context. The latter quote perhaps, however.

The meaning of the word religion in its common usage, and the meaning underlying Einstein's usage of it are two relatively different things, which you did not particularly distinguish in your first post.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
God is not a person

Does it matter? NO.

This argument is only going to work in the pressumption that god actually exists. I'm not trying to debate whetehr or not god exists, I'm trying to examine how science relates to God in the context of religion.

Originally posted by Alliance
Does it matter? NO.

This argument is only going to work in the pressumption that god actually exists. I'm not trying to debate whetehr or not god exists, I'm trying to examine how science relates to God in the context of religion.

Religious God doesn't exist

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Somewhat strawman-ish. Religion, in the classical sense, has it's place; it can and has been utilised for positive and negative ends, and may or may not be a motivation for peoples' innovation and ingenuity in the sciences.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

I fail to see how this above is thoroughly lacking in context. The latter quote perhaps, however.

The meaning of the word religion in its common usage, and the meaning underlying Einstein's usage of it are two relatively different things, which you did not particularly distinguish in your first post.

I did use the term "religionistic" (not "religious"😉. But perhaps that wasn't clear enough. Thus:

Religionism is ego-serving and self-contradicting. It is "religion" as commonly grasped, especially when referring to all the bias, suffering, death and destruction people have wrought in "God's" name throughout history. This is "religion" as rejected by Einstein and most (all?) great scientists and honest thinkers. At the very least, it is a horrid aberration of Humanity's noblest aspirations.

Religion is truth-serving and ultimately self-transcending. It is the sense of the numinous, of the ultimate mystery that is reality (Einstein's "cosmic" feeling...though even Einstein felt that the universe was ultimately knowable, which is why he didn't like quantum mechanics: "God does not play dice..." to toss off another of his quotes). It includes the realization that there is more to the world than meets the eye or mind, that reality includes nonempirical elements, at the very least "mind" (not the neurochemical correlates, but the subjective experience of consciousness), and possibly, Possibly, something "higher."

Whether one includes a personal God in this or not, it doesn't matter. Religion (as used here) dictates, above all else, a prime directive of respect and compassion for one another, regardless of faith, creed or religionistic upbringing. Science Alone (ie, empirical science) says nothing about that; all it knows is numbers.

Alliance
I'm not quite sure what you're asking/saying, but I hope what I said above might make my position more clear. Also, with regard to examining "how science relates to God in the context of religion," it is my feeling the scientific method can be used to investigate "God" as long as one is fair about it. That is, the tools used and the data collected should reflect the domain being studied. If "God" is regarded as a transempirical entity, then the insistence on using empirical science becomes an exercise in Scientism, which like Religionism, is ultimately ego-serving and self-contradicting.

Listen dude.

1. I don't care if its a religious God or not. Its GOD.

2. This is NOT an argument about if God exists or not, its about how God, Science, the clergy and scientists realate WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF RELIGION.

Anything that is "god does not exist" is off-topic.

Let me state this again. GOD WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF RELIGION. I

Originally posted by Alliance
Listen dude.

1. I don't care if its a religious God or not. Its GOD.

2. This is NOT an argument about if God exists or not, its about how God, Science, the clergy and scientists realate WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF RELIGION.

Anything that is "god does not exist" is off-topic.

Let me state this again. GOD WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF RELIGION. I

God doesn't exist ❌

Originally posted by Mindship
[B]Alliance
I'm not quite sure what you're asking/saying, but I hope what I said above might make my position more clear. [/B]

Despite the beautiful distinction, its is one not recognized by society and pop culture. It is an intellectual differentiation and not one interpretable by the common man.

A better disctinction to draw would to be against organized religion, not religion itself. This terminology is more immediately accessible to everyone.

I understand where you're comming from now.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
God doesn't exist ❌

Listen. Many people in the world believe that God does exist. It is REAL to them, despite logic to the contrary. I am looking at this issue from thier perspective.

EVERY religious argumant can be stifled by your conclusion. Thats why I want to disallow it. Its not productive.

The point of this thread was to examine the role of scinetists in religion as the primary interpreters of creation. That cannot be examined from your point of view, so you are not contributing.

You don't have to post here, but I'm not exculding you. I'd just appreciate it if posts were either on-topic or humorous.

Originally posted by Alliance
Despite the beautiful distinction, its is one not recognized by society and pop culture. It is an intellectual differentiation and not one interpretable by the common man.
A better disctinction to draw would to be against organized religion, not religion itself. This terminology is more immediately accessible to everyone.

That I do agree with...though if the common man tried just a wee bit harder... 😉

😂 That would solve MANY a problem.

And there was much rejoicing.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Well, for starters...

1. The article--since I feel it is evident that Alliance himself did not write it, though he has failed to quote it--presents the classic "Church vs. science" viewpoint. Flawed from the very beginning.

2. This sentence is beyond ridiculous: "By understanding our place within creation and creation's place within us, we can interpret God's will here and now from their active influence in this world, not from man-made/corrupted text."

It's hogwash. How can we possibly determine how God is "actively influencing" this world by studying nature?

3. The article tries to make the case that, by studying creation, we can understand God's will "be closer to Him." This is akin to me saying that, by studying how a telephone works, I can understand Alexander Graham Bell.

4. "Natural Scientists are like clergy, only studying the living will of God(s), and hence closer to God(s) than those who ignore God's living legacy."

Again, this makes the faulty claim that anyone in organized religion ignores/disregards science. Furthermore, this very claim is invalidated by the sheer number of scientists that have taken it upon themselves to boldly proclaim that science disproves God--and those that try to combine science and religion, such as William Dembski, are treated with scorn and derision.

Sorry, Fece, let me think about it for a little bit and then answer.

Originally posted by Alliance
Sorry, Fece, let me think about it for a little bit and then answer.
🙁 His response deserved a response while mine did not *pouts*

j/k 😉

Sorry, there are a lot of responses and I will adress all of them. I working on a paper for finals right now, and I find it hard to devote time to a thoughtful response to anything....

So I write sh!t like this ^^^

Originally posted by Alliance
Sorry, there are a lot of responses and I will adress all of them. I working on a paper for finals right now, and I find it hard to devote time to a thoughtful response to anything....

So I write sh!t like this ^^^

😆 😆 😆

Good luck on the finals, its nice when you finish with school. Although then every grant application becomes a huge, and possibly life altering, final.

Originally posted by Alliance
Does it matter? NO.

This argument is only going to work in the pressumption that god actually exists. I'm not trying to debate whetehr or not god exists, I'm trying to examine how science relates to God in the context of religion.

And I see your point.

If there was a God, (something that created us that we should follow) then science definately is closer to it than religion by the fact that science is based upon truth not opinion.