Good Old-Fashioned Values

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I'm sorry, you lost me when you said that teaching abstinence as part of sex education would be "counter-productive and possibly dangerous."

That's a crock of shit.

You take your 50 kids in the class, you explain the birds and the bees, the semen and ovaries, the penis and the vagina... all of that.

You tell them how sex works, and what it does: Make babies.

Go into social and literary history if you like, and explain sex in all it's aspects including how it's been viewed throughout history and so on.

You can present the obvious fact that many people have sex other than just for babies, but biologically that's its primary function.

Explain childbirth, adoption, and abortion, and the ramifications socially, economically, emotionally, and physically for each.

Explain all STD's including AIDS, gonorrhea, syphilis, herpes, and genital warts. Pictures are often helpful.

Then present the sexual options and consequences of each:

Unprotected sex= risk of pregnancy or STD.
Protected sex=lower risk of pregnancy or STD.
(explain all forms: condoms, the pill, ... the dreaded diaphragm)

abstinence=no risk of pregnancy or STD.

^^^^Oh wait, that [b]is how we currently teach sex education.
My bad.

This "study" and it's "recommendations" about not teaching abstinence is just a bunch of liberal bullshit.

I like how it tries to connect the Bush Administration with a "policy of abstinence"..... as if the people who advocate abstinence and it being taught as an option wouldn't be here if Bush wasn't.

Or as if Kerry, Edwards, Clinton or ANY other Democrat would have the balls to remove abstinence from what is taught about sex in schools.

The study is of 36,000 people, yet there are 300 million in the country.

And young people make up what, about a 1/3rd right? (approx. 100mil)

And there are about 4 or 5 million of them who commit to abstinence, to saving sex for marriage.

I agree that percentage wise it's only 4 or 5% of kids that choose abstinence, but when you say that what are you saying?

You're saying that's 4 or 5 million kids who won't have to deal with a pregnancy and either keep it, abort it, or give it up. (all of which suck)

You're saying that's 4 or 5 million kids who won't contract an STD.

And the point of the study is that those kids don't matter, that they are the minority, and that keeping 4 or 5 million kids of this or the next generation from getting of all the facts and them making an informed decision isn't really important now.... because it's "old fashioned."

What a load of horseshit.

*checks first page*
Ahh, 'twas started by Adam_PoE....now I get it. [/B]

I'm not sure if you deliberately missed the point or missed it out of plain ignorance...

Teaching abstinence is a waste, you then double the disaster by(if) advocating only teaching abstinence as a safe-sex method. The vast majority of people are going to have sex, it's a natural urge. So knowing that, wouldn't you rather teach kids and educate them on how to have safe-sex for their own safety?

Using your family and extended family as an example, you, your wife, your parents and your wife's parents ALL had premarital sex, what makes you think it will work on others if it had a 100% rate of failure in your family? 4-5% is not a success, you then have to take into consideration, how many of those that make up that measely 4-5% will stick with abstinence.

So teaching the risks of smoking is a waste too then?

Millions smoke.

Ads and info won't change their minds, they already know "what could happen."

If only 5% of people (again when you say 5% remember that it represents 5 million people) listed to the TRUTH ads about cigarettes and didn't smoke....... would you call that "a waste" as you do abstinence education?

Obviously most don't keep to saving sex for marriage. (as I said before and as you were happy to point out, niether I nor most of my family did.)

But if the education leads to 5 million choosing abstinence (and safe sex is still taught for those who don't).... then what exactly is your issue?

Do you have one?

Or is it that "Good Old Fashioned Values" as the thread title calls them, along with anything having to do with Christianity is so taboo these days that you'll speak out against them for no good reason.

I have a good reason.

Abstinence education still leads to 5 million kids saving themselves for marriage.

As I posted in the abstinence thread, two of them are my wife's friends. She 23 and he 26 when they married as virgins.

So while neither I nor my wife chose abstinence, this girl Emily who went to the same school as my wife..... DID.

Apparently that abstinence education is still working, even on people that I know. 😎

As long as safe sex is taught too there is nothing wrong with talking about abstience.

Unfortunately way too many abstinece people teach only abstinence and try to use it to promote thier religion

Originally posted by sithsaber408
So teaching the risks of smoking is a waste too then?

Millions smoke.

Ads and info won't change their minds, they already know "what could happen."

If only 5% of people (again when you say 5% remember that it represents 5 million people) listed to the TRUTH ads about cigarettes and didn't smoke....... would you call that "a waste" as you do abstinence education?

Obviously most don't keep to saving sex for marriage. (as I said before and as you were happy to point out, niether I nor most of my family did.)

But if the education leads to 5 million choosing abstinence (and safe sex is still taught for those who don't).... then what exactly is your issue?

Do you have one?

Or is it that "Good Old Fashioned Values" as the thread title calls them, along with anything having to do with Christianity is so taboo these days that you'll speak out against them for no good reason.

I have a good reason.

Abstinence education still leads to 5 million kids saving themselves for marriage.

As I posted in the abstinence thread, two of them are my wife's friends. She 23 and he 26 when they married as virgins.

So while neither I nor my wife chose abstinence, this girl Emily who went to the same school as my wife..... DID.

Apparently that abstinence education is still working, even on people that I know. 😎

Sex is a nature urge and smoking is a harmful addiction, comparing the two is ridiculous.

I do have a point, teaching abstinence by itself or as the main form of safe-sex/sexual education is unproductive. If you're advocating teaching kids safe-sex methods along with abstinence, then I agree, the abstinence teachings can't hurt. But unfortunately, most who advocate abstinence reject teaching safe-sex or the passing out of condoms.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
So teaching the risks of smoking is a waste too then?

Millions smoke.

Ads and info won't change their minds, they already know "what could happen."

If only 5% of people (again when you say 5% remember that it represents 5 million people) listed to the TRUTH ads about cigarettes and didn't smoke....... would you call that "a waste" as you do abstinence education?

Obviously most don't keep to saving sex for marriage. (as I said before and as you were happy to point out, niether I nor most of my family did.)

But if the education leads to 5 million choosing abstinence (and safe sex is still taught for those who don't).... then what exactly is your issue?

Do you have one?

Or is it that "Good Old Fashioned Values" as the thread title calls them, along with anything having to do with Christianity is so taboo these days that you'll speak out against them for no good reason.

I have a good reason.

Abstinence education still leads to 5 million kids saving themselves for marriage.

As I posted in the abstinence thread, two of them are my wife's friends. She 23 and he 26 when they married as virgins.

So while neither I nor my wife chose abstinence, this girl Emily who went to the same school as my wife..... DID.

Apparently that abstinence education is still working, even on people that I know. 😎

#1 You really need to get over this notion that anything Christian is taboo and rejected by the population of America. That's just bullshit. You know it, I know it, the whole ****ing country knows it. Christianity is so in right now, it's practically a religion.

#2 No one is arguing that abstinance education is a bad thing, they're saying that relying on it alone is ridiculous and irresponsible. I'm sure that if you taught abstinence-only to every kid in the country, you'd still end up with nearly the same 5 million figure of kids that buy into it.

#3 I love your example of Emily. But, considering there are 5 million others just like it, it is irrlelvent. Not only is your example irrelevent; but 99% of your reasoning is too, simply based on the fact that you use your own life as through it were an experince common to everyone else in the country...what with all these abstinence-loyal friends, and homo relatives that found christ under the cushions of his couch and left his sinful ways behind, etc, etc, etc. I also like how all your christian views seem to be in one form or fashion relevent to your wife. Like I said, you may be living your life for christ these days, but you seem to have bought into it just to dip your wick without her feeling conflicted.

#4 Have you ever considered what a tiny number is your 5 million? I'm willing to bet that's pretty much equal to the number of kids who just can't get laid. I don't doubt that there are many who subscribe to abstinence through virtue, but I think a lot of people who tout it as a noble descision would drop their drawers if they thought they could get laid. (You might want to ask your wife about this one)

#5 You boast about having been a born-again virgin. And then you argue about how less-likely those who practice abstinence are so much less likely to get STDs, did your wife give you crabs or something and that led you two to recommit actions in your marrital bed to god?

#6 Cigarettes are not sex and it serves as a false comparison. You keep talking about how less likely your sacred cow number of 5 million are to get an STD or an unwanted pregnancy...but how many studies have been done on the number of kids who have sex and don't end up a lifetime tv movie of the week?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
#1 You really need to get over this notion that anything Christian is taboo and rejected by the population of America. That's just bullshit. You know it, I know it, the whole ****ing country knows it. Christianity is so in right now, it's practically a religion.

#2 No one is arguing that abstinance education is a bad thing, they're saying that relying on it alone is ridiculous and irresponsible. I'm sure that if you taught abstinence-only to every kid in the country, you'd still end up with nearly the same 5 million figure of kids that buy into it.

#3 I love your example of Emily. But, considering there are 5 million others just like it, it is irrlelvent. Not only is your example irrelevent; but 99% of your reasoning is too, simply based on the fact that you use your own life as through it were an experince common to everyone else in the country...what with all these abstinence-loyal friends, and homo relatives that found christ under the cushions of his couch and left his sinful ways behind, etc, etc, etc. I also like how all your christian views seem to be in one form or fashion relevent to your wife. Like I said, you may be living your life for christ these days, but you seem to have bought into it just to dip your wick without her feeling conflicted.

#4 Have you ever considered what a tiny number is your 5 million? I'm willing to bet that's pretty much equal to the number of kids who just can't get laid. I don't doubt that there are many who subscribe to abstinence through virtue, but I think a lot of people who tout it as a noble descision would drop their drawers if they thought they could get laid. (you might want to ask your wife about this one)

#5 You boast about having been a born-again virgin. And then you argue about how less-likely those who practice abstinence are so much less likely to get STDs, did your wife give you crabs or something and that led you two to recommit actions in your marrital bed to god?

#6 Cigarettes are not sex and it serves as a false comparison. You keep talking about how less likely your sacred cow number of 5 million are to get an STD or an unwanted pregnancy...but how many studies have been done on the number of kids who have sex and don't end up a lifetime tv movie of the week?

sorry, I hit the quote button rather than the edit button.

Does "abstinence education" actually entail teaching about the risks of sexually transmitted disease?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does "abstinence education" actually entail teaching about the risks of sexually transmitted disease?

under the best of circumstances yes

but in many it doesn't

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does "abstinence education" actually entail teaching about the risks of sexually transmitted disease?

Probally in regards to a lot of fear mongering.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does "abstinence education" actually entail teaching about the risks of sexually transmitted disease?

The majority of abstinence educators do not teach or advocate safe-sex methods because they know that if you give children/young people the options of:

A) Say yourself until marriage and only have one sexual partner, your future spouse
or
B) Have sex when you're ready, but do it safely

...the vast majority will choose "B" so they leave it out of the equation.

In which case the analogy to "the risks of smoking", notwithstanding that it's already highly flawed (smoking is addictive and unhealthy -- trust me I know), is completely inaccurate.

If abstinence education doesn't entail teaching the actual repercussions of sex, then it's the equivalent of telling kids that smoking is bad and they shouldn't do it without actually telling them how it is bad for their health.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Probally in regards to a lot of fear mongering.

Yuck.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
So teaching the risks of smoking is a waste too then?

Millions smoke.

Ads and info won't change their minds, they already know "what could happen."

If only 5% of people (again when you say 5% remember that it represents 5 million people) listed to the TRUTH ads about cigarettes and didn't smoke....... would you call that "a waste" as you do abstinence education?

This argument commits the logic fallacy of False Analogy. One can reduce the health risks associated with sex, but one cannot reduce the health risks associated with smoking.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Obviously most don't keep to saving sex for marriage. (as I said before and as you were happy to point out, niether I nor most of my family did.)

But if the education leads to 5 million choosing abstinence (and safe sex is still taught for those who don't).... then what exactly is your issue?

Do you have one?

[list=1][*]Most abstinence-only programs are not successful in delaying the initiation of sex.

[*]Let us presume that abstinence-only programs are successful in delaying the initiation of sex among the 5 million children you propose. The contrapositive of this is that abstinence-only programs fail in delaying the initiation of sex among the other 95 million children.[/list]

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Or is it that "Good Old Fashioned Values" as the thread title calls them, along with anything having to do with Christianity is so taboo these days that you'll speak out against them for no good reason.

Since the 1930s, 95% of Americans have been having premarital sex. "Good Old Fashioned Values," indeed. You see, it is not the behavior of Americans that has changed over the past 75 years, but rather their attitudes about their behavior.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I have a good reason.

Abstinence education still leads to 5 million kids saving themselves for marriage.

As I posted in the abstinence thread, two of them are my wife's friends. She 23 and he 26 when they married as virgins.

So while neither I nor my wife chose abstinence, this girl Emily who went to the same school as my wife..... DID.

Apparently that abstinence education is still working, even on people that I know. 😎

88% of teens who pledge to remain virgins until marriage have sex within 18 months. If that is how you define success, I would hate to see how you define failure.

I reduce the health risks of smoking by using Lite brands.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I reduce the health risks of smoking by using Lite brands.

Light cigarettes do not reduce the health risks associated with smoking.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I reduce the health risks of smoking by using Lite brands.

Duhhhhh....I reduce da risk of getting STD's by having Oral Sex instead of Anal sex 🙄

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Light cigarettes do not reduce the health risks associated with smoking.

Nor does he think so.

I guess it's a good thing I don't smoke, eh?

Originally posted by FeceMan
I guess it's a good thing I don't smoke, eh?

For you...i doubt the rest of us here care either way.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
For you...i doubt the rest of us here care either way.....