Betrayal - an exploration

Originally posted by Thundar
The bottom line is that people make mistakes. If they earnestly are trying to correct these things and are remorseful for their actions - then I don't see the behavior as a betrayal, I just see it as immature and foolish behavior.

Real betrayal only comes into play when one is no longer repentant for their behavior, and continues to do whatever pleases them, despite whatever harm they cause to others.

Originally posted by Fishy
Of course feeling sorry and trying to make up, can be done. It doesn't change the fact that somebody betrayed somebody, nor the feeling that comes from it. The person that did it, is just nice enough to make up for it.

If you would for instance steal nuclear secrets of your country then give them to Iran and tell them how to make nukes, and then a month later feel guilty, confess and try to make up you would still be called a traitor. You would still have committed treason.

I see what you're saying. I think the major point of difference in our views is that you believe betrayal is more of an action, while I see it as more of a mindset or thought process.

Let me use the analogy you gave to further demonstrate my POV. It's possible that the person giving nuclear secrets from his country, might believe that giving such information away -- will prevent his country from ever being able to successfully use such information for evil purposes. The person's decision in doing this might not be a wise one, particularly if he gives this information to an evil regime, but still - his underlying motivation for doing such a thing wasn't to betray.

So I think true betrayal really is made up of 2 things.

1. A well thought out plan working against another's actions.
2. Intent to cause harm to an individual.

If either one of these factors is missing from the equation, then I wouldn't really categorize the action as betrayal. Particularly if the underlying motivation of the action is to help out an individual in some way.

Originally posted by Tangible God
By definition, that's still betrayal. Breaking someone's trust in you, when you've made it clear that they CAN trust you, is betrayal. Whether you later feel guilty of it or not is irrelevant.

So as a parent am I betraying my child's trust if I take away their allowance, and force them to stay in their room for an hour when they've done something I deem bad for them?

I'm sure that some might say that I am, others might say that I am not. I have found in life that the the former of these two persons, is generally the one who has much difficulty understanding the differences between righteous action, loving discipline and betrayal anyway - and these individuals are generally those who are more likely to truly betray others, as well as betray themselves.

Originally posted by Thundar
I see what you're saying. I think the major point of difference in our views is that you believe betrayal is more of an action, while I see it as more of a mindset or thought process.

Let me use the analogy you gave to further demonstrate my POV. It's possible that the person giving nuclear secrets from his country, might believe that giving such information away -- will prevent his country from ever being able to successfully use such information for evil purposes. The person's decision in doing this might not be a wise one, particularly if he gives this information to an evil regime, but still - his underlying motivation for doing such a thing wasn't to betray.

So I think true betrayal really is made up of 2 things.

1. A well thought out plan working against another's actions.
2. Intent to cause harm to an individual.

If either one of these factors is missing from the equation, then I wouldn't really categorize the action as betrayal. Particularly if the underlying motivation of the action is to help out an individual in some way.

Can't say I agree with your definition here... If I were to steal from a friend and not think of it before I did it I would still steal from a friend.

Although yes I can see your point in hurting somebody if you think it's for the best... However you might think it's for the best and in that case it might not be seen as betrayal later on. At that moment in time for the person affected by it, it would still be betrayal. And if it worked out in any other way then you would want it too, you would still end up with one less friend.

The motives of the action might make things different if they work out the way somebody wants them too, but they are completely unimportant if it doesn't.

Originally posted by Thundar
So as a parent am I betraying my child's trust if I take away their allowance, and force them to stay in their room for an hour when they've done something I deem bad for them?

I'm sure that some might say that I am, others might say that I am not. I have found in life that the the former of these two persons, is generally the one who has much difficulty understanding the differences between righteous action, loving discipline and betrayal anyway - and these individuals are generally those who are more likely to truly betray others, as well as betray themselves.

But no matter its moral alignment, the act itself is still betrayal.

Originally posted by Tangible God
According to my Webster's encyclopedia, that's betrayal. Whatever your motives or intentions, the act itself is betrayal. What determines its moral standing is your intentions when committing the act. If its for selfish reasons, its wrong, but if its for what you believe to be a righteous reason, its right.
But no matter its moral alignment, the act itself is still betrayal.

The English language is very contextual one - so the original definition provided is generally only used in most contexts to describe an act which usually breaches some form of righteous "moral alignment" as you've put it. I seriously doubt many rational minded people would allude to a parent betraying their child's trust, if they disciplined them for an unrighteous act they'd commited.

Taking all of this into consideration, most situations where one's intent is to assist in maintaining this righteous "moral alignment" - should not be characterized as betrayal.

So true betrayal is more of a spiritual and moral issue, which takes place when one goes against what they know to be righteous and good, and yet explicitly goes against what they know is right - for the distinct intent to harm another, in addition to a perceived sense of self entitlement. Usually, much forethought is put into such situations where one is attempting to betray, although this is not always the case.

Originally posted by Thundar
The English language is very contextual one - so the original definition provided is generally only used in most contexts to describe an act which usually breaches some form of righteous "moral alignment" as you've put it. I seriously doubt many rational minded people would allude to a parent betraying their child's trust, if they disciplined them for an unrighteous act they'd commited.

Taking all of this into consideration, most situations where one's intent is to assist in maintaining this righteous "moral alignment" - should not be characterized as betrayal.

So true betrayal is more of a spiritual and moral issue, which takes place when one goes against what they know to be righteous and good, and yet explicitly goes against what they know is right - for the distinct intent to harm another, in addition to a perceived sense of self entitlement. Usually, much forethought is put into such situations where one is attempting to betray, although this is not always the case.

You'll betray someone's trust in you, perhaps irrevocably, in order to do something you feel surpasses that trust in significance.

Still betrayal, despite your intentions, or the outcome.

Originally posted by Tangible God
So, in a very generalized sense-- sacrificing 1 to save 20.
You'll betray someone's trust in you, perhaps irrevocably, in order to do something you feel surpasses that trust in significance.

Still betrayal, despite your intentions, or the outcome.

That's not at all what I stated. You insinuated that "moral alignment" has nothing to do with the definition of the term betrayal, and I stated that it does.

An action is not betrayal if the "moral alignment" supporting such an action is one that supports a greater Good. A greater Good which is comprised of loving intentions -- which result in producing righteous outcomes.

Originally posted by Eclipso

What makes us betray?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Jealousy and insecurity.

Others betray in order to gain that which would otherwise be beyond thier reach.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Others betray in order to gain that which would otherwise be beyond thier reach.

Or they think they have to go down that route to get what they want because they are too weak to do it the hard way.

sly