Smarts or PIS

Started by Scoobless9 pages

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Originally posted by Weyoun
And therein lies the problem with this forum, it's ules fail to acknoledge the nobility and spirit of certain characters who will overcome the odds time and time again because that's what they do.

It's not about P.I.S. it's about the extra power that characters like Cap and Superman have over all the others, the power of indomitable spirit and refusal to say die. That's what there real power is and not the trading card power set.

To believe that someone will win just because he's fighting for what's right or fighting with more heart is incredibly naive.

That's why these "character shields" aren't used on KMC, we're trying to see who realistically would/should win .... all the heart in the world shouldn't let Cap beat Venom or Sandman in a fight.

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Originally posted by Scoobless
To believe that someone will win just because he's fighting for what's right or fighting with more heart is incredibly naive.

That's why these "character shields" aren't used on KMC, we're trying to see who realistically would/should win .... all the heart in the world shouldn't let Cap beat Venom or Sandman in a fight.

In all fairness though it can help, even people in the real world can have greater durability and pain resistance to people who are much stronger than them. Cap is enhanced human with a alot of willpower that will mean he will do many superhuman feats.

Re: Re: Re: Smarts or PIS

Originally posted by Alfheim
Some people would call that PIS....

What is PIS ?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smarts or PIS

Originally posted by Scoobless
To believe that someone will win just because he's fighting for what's right or fighting with more heart is incredibly naive.

That's why these "character shields" aren't used on KMC, we're trying to see who realistically would/should win .... all the heart in the world shouldn't let Cap beat Venom or Sandman in a fight.

No they have removed hope and the human spirit. Think of the 300 or the Battle of Britain.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Smarts or PIS

Originally posted by Prof S.T.I.
What is PIS ?

No Mentioning Events of PIS

Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

No SvFL

Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.

People have different opinions about what is PIS or not. Some people try to make it like its clear cut. 🙄

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Originally posted by Weyoun
No they have removed hope and the human spirit. Think of the 300 or the Battle of Britain.

Training and strategy.

Being in the right only gets you a win in PIS fiction.... in reality, good people are killed every day by cowards.

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Originally posted by Scoobless
Training and strategy.

Being in the right only gets you a win in PIS fiction.... in reality, good people are killed every day by cowards.

Yes but you cant deny human spirit can be a factor. Look at what I said earlier. 🙄

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smarts or PIS

Originally posted by Scoobless
Training and strategy.

Being in the right only gets you a win in PIS fiction.... in reality, good people are killed every day by cowards.

Taining and strategy and courage and dignity.

The German Pilots had as much training as the rag tag combination of pilots in the RAF.

Do you fail to understand logic? I can believe and will that I will win a fight, doesn't mean it guaruntees a victory, which it what your saying.

He can believe as much as he wants and be as patriotic as he wants, he shouldn't win against most opponents.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666

He can believe as much as he wants and be as patriotic as he wants, he shouldn't win against most opponents.

Like who? Self-belief can help somebody gain victory. Its not a guarantee but it can help as I have explained earlier

Originally posted by Alfheim
Like who? Self-belief can help somebody gain victory. Its not a guarantee but it can help as I have explained earlier

In battles where the opponent is around the same level or a tiny bit above, yes. But not in Absorbing Man or Iron Man cases.

My post was aimed at Weyoun, no offense Alf.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
In battles where the opponent is around the same level or a tiny bit above, yes. But not in Absorbing Man or Iron Man cases.

Well this is what I was trying to explain before. First of all Cap is not a normal human he is enhanced for starters. Is it possible for somebody with his stats who has extremely high intelligence to find a way to do this? I dont have extremely high intelligence would I be able to portray this properly in a comic.

Furthermore why does the opponent have to be only slightly more powerful? An enhanced human with a lot of skill and alot of willpower will do superhuman feats.

Yeah I know you're post wasnt aimed at me.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well this is what I was trying to explain before. First of all Cap is not a normal human he is enhanced for starters. Is it possible for somebody with his stats who has extremely high intelligence to find a way to do this? I dont have extremely high intelligence would I be able to portray this properly in a comic.

Furthermore why does the opponent have to be only slightly more powerful? An enhanced human with a lot of skill and alot of willpower will do superhuman feats.

Yeah I know you're post wasnt aimed at me.

Not really, Namor has really good intelligence x10 that of Wolverines, PIS means Wolverine beats him because Namor didn't fight. Same with Iron Man and Cap, I'd say Tony is smarter and x10 stronger in nearly every ability. Yet Cap more or less ands him his ass, same as Namor/Wolv.

Sure, but he shouldn't be beating Iron Man or Absorbing Man, the only way he wins is by PIS, he will do Superhuman feats, he is more or less superhuman. As much as I could try and beat up someone x10 stronger that me, as much as I will and believe it, it won't happen.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
Not really, Namor has really good intelligence x10 that of Wolverines, PIS means Wolverine beats him because Namor didn't fight. Same with Iron Man and Cap, I'd say Tony is smarter and x10 stronger in nearly every ability. Yet Cap more or less ands him his ass, same as Namor/Wolv.

Tony is really good at building stuff, he is not a genuis at strategy. Thats one of the reasons why Cap is leader of The Avengers. Cap has never beaten Namor before properly. He has beaten a mind controlled Namor and a Namor clone.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666

Sure, but he shouldn't be beating Iron Man or Absorbing Man, the only way he wins is by PIS, he will do Superhuman feats, he is more or less superhuman.

Why cant he beat Absorbing man, Absorbing man has lower than average intelligence. Cap has extremely high intelligence. Its impossible for somebody as smart as cap to trick him into reverting back to his normal form?

Originally posted by Ichigo66666

As much as I could try and beat up someone x10 stronger that me, as much as I will and believe it, it won't happen.

Well if you accept the fact that Cap can see bullets, he can dodge lasers in zero gravity. Also Mantis a human being can knock out Thor, why cant Cap beat somebody 10 times stronger than himself?

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
Do you fail to understand logic? I can believe and will that I will win a fight, doesn't mean it guaruntees a victory, which it what your saying.

He can believe as much as he wants and be as patriotic as he wants, he shouldn't win against most opponents.

No I think you're a little lost we are discussing the embodiement of a concept "courage against overwhelming odds". You are talking about a Pokemon card game.

In the Battle of Britain the Odds were 3:1

The point is a symbolic one of courage and sacrifice against overwhelming odds. Myriad cultural references stem from this concept David and Goliath, The battl of Thermopylae which although lost illustrates the concept excellently.

The SS Stephen Hopkins is another example it's story

"Early on the morning of September 27, 1942 two German raiders suddenly appeared out of the morning mist to attack the SS Stephen Hopkins. Heavy guns of one raider pounded her hull, and machine gun fire from the other sprayed her decks at close quarters. The lightly armed merchantman exchanged shot for shot with the enemy, placing thirty-five shells into the water line of one of the raiders until its crew was forced to abandon their sinking ship. The gun commander was mortally wounded early in the action, and all of the gun crew were killed or wounded when an enemy shell exploded the magazine of their gun. At the explosion, Edwin O'Hara ran aft and single-handed served and fired the damaged gun with five live shells remaining in the ready box, scoring direct hits near the water line of the second raider setting it on fire. O'Hara was mortally wounded in this action. With boilers blown up, engines destroyed, masts shot away, and ablaze from stem to stern, the gallant merchantman finally went under carrying O'Hara and several of his fighting shipmates with her. [The survivors were rescued after 31 days in a lifeboat.]

The stark courage of her crew in their heroic stand against overpowering odds caused her name to be perpetuated as a Gallant Ship."

another example of this concept - January 22nd, 1879

"The garrison at Isandhlwana was a disaster waiting to happen. The garrison had inadequate numbers to fend off a massive Zulu attack. Lord Chelmsford was the commander of the British troops in the region. His military philosophy on the Zulus was that they would avoid an open battle with British regular troops. The book Anglo Zulu War states that Lord Chelmsford’s belief was that he did not have to worry about a Zulu attack. From his own experience, while serving in Africa, Lord Chelmsford learned that African armies want to avoid an open field battle against regular British soldiers. His concern was that they would avoid a battle by out maneuvering his units by crossing the Mzinyathi Valley downstream of Rorke’s Drift to invade Natal. Therefore, Lord Chelmsford decided to split his forces and leave half his troops at Isandhlwana. With a smaller number of troops stationed at the garrison, many holes existed in the all around defense if a Zulu attack ever came. Rupert Furneaux records in his book that the defense line at Isandhlwana stretched 3,000 yards in total distance. There were a number of weak points in the line; one was the 1,000 yard gap between Pope and Durnford. As well, there was a gap that stretched 1,000 yards in front of the tents and wagons, and below the slope near Isandhlwana Mount. The other weak point was in the northeast corner. The job of defending the spot was given to the Natal Native Force, a force that lacked both battle experience and proper equipment to fight with. Pulleine had a better chance of defending Isandhlwana if he withdrew his troops closer together to form a half circle, with Isandhlwana Mount at their backs. Once the Zulus attacked in their horned formation, it was a matter of time before the British soldier would have been overrun. They were outnumbered twenty to one in the defense of Isandhlwana. The British soldier at Isandhlwana fought with great courage in overwhelming odds. As the ammunition ran out the British regulars had no choice but to fix bayonets and fight the Zulu in hand to hand combat. The British suffered heavy losses in the massacre. By the time the battle had ended 1,300 soldiers lost their lives and the 1st Battalion of the 24th Regiment lost all of its officers in the stand at Isandhlwana. Three soldiers were awarded the Victoria Cross for acts of bravery in battle."

Cap, Spiderman and Superman are fictional embodiements fo this spirit.

You miss point and fail to understand the need for such fictional figures.

Who are the embodiment of ideals like "Truth and Justice"

Originally posted by Alfheim
Tony is really good at building stuff, he is not a genuis at strategy. Thats one of the reasons why Cap is leader of The Avengers. Cap has never beaten Namor before properly. He has beaten a mind controlled Namor and a Namor clone.

Why cant he beat Absorbing man, Absorbing man has lower than average intelligence. Cap has extremely high intelligence. Its impossible for somebody as smart as cap to trick him into reverting back to his normal form?

Well if you accept the fact that Cap can see bullets, he can dodge lasers in zero gravity. Also Mantis a human being can knock out Thor, why cant Cap beat somebody 10 times stronger than himself?

Strategy shouldn't do much in a fist fight or when they are fighting, realistically, speedblitz, dead cap. I was talking about Namor V Wolv=Cap V Iron Man.

He shouldn't beat AM because there is nothing he can do to hurt him. Without PIS and CIS, AM is unbeatable by anyone Cap Level.

See above.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
Strategy shouldn't do much in a fist fight or when they are fighting, realistically, speedblitz, dead cap. I was talking about Namor V Wolv=Cap V Iron Man.

He shouldn't beat AM because there is nothing he can do to hurt him. Without PIS and CIS, AM is unbeatable by anyone Cap Level.

See above.

A Vs. B = C ❌ It's not that easy when talking about those fighting for an ideal.

Originally posted by Weyoun
No I think you're a little lost we are discussing the embodiement of a concept "courage against overwhelming odds". You are talking about a Pokemon card game.

In the Battle of Britain the Odds were 3:1

The point is a symbolic one of courage and sacrifice against overwhelming odds. Myriad cultural references stem from this concept David and Goliath, The battl of Thermopylae which although lost illustrates the concept excellently.

The SS Stephen Hopkins is another example it's story

"Early on the morning of September 27, 1942 two German raiders suddenly appeared out of the morning mist to attack the SS Stephen Hopkins. Heavy guns of one raider pounded her hull, and machine gun fire from the other sprayed her decks at close quarters. The lightly armed merchantman exchanged shot for shot with the enemy, placing thirty-five shells into the water line of one of the raiders until its crew was forced to abandon their sinking ship. The gun commander was mortally wounded early in the action, and all of the gun crew were killed or wounded when an enemy shell exploded the magazine of their gun. At the explosion, Edwin O'Hara ran aft and single-handed served and fired the damaged gun with five live shells remaining in the ready box, scoring direct hits near the water line of the second raider setting it on fire. O'Hara was mortally wounded in this action. With boilers blown up, engines destroyed, masts shot away, and ablaze from stem to stern, the gallant merchantman finally went under carrying O'Hara and several of his fighting shipmates with her. [The survivors were rescued after 31 days in a lifeboat.]

The stark courage of her crew in their heroic stand against overpowering odds caused her name to be perpetuated as a Gallant Ship."

another example of this concept - January 22nd, 1879

"The garrison at Isandhlwana was a disaster waiting to happen. The garrison had inadequate numbers to fend off a massive Zulu attack. Lord Chelmsford was the commander of the British troops in the region. His military philosophy on the Zulus was that they would avoid an open battle with British regular troops. The book Anglo Zulu War states that Lord Chelmsford’s belief was that he did not have to worry about a Zulu attack. From his own experience, while serving in Africa, Lord Chelmsford learned that African armies want to avoid an open field battle against regular British soldiers. His concern was that they would avoid a battle by out maneuvering his units by crossing the Mzinyathi Valley downstream of Rorke’s Drift to invade Natal. Therefore, Lord Chelmsford decided to split his forces and leave half his troops at Isandhlwana. With a smaller number of troops stationed at the garrison, many holes existed in the all around defense if a Zulu attack ever came. Rupert Furneaux records in his book that the defense line at Isandhlwana stretched 3,000 yards in total distance. There were a number of weak points in the line; one was the 1,000 yard gap between Pope and Durnford. As well, there was a gap that stretched 1,000 yards in front of the tents and wagons, and below the slope near Isandhlwana Mount. The other weak point was in the northeast corner. The job of defending the spot was given to the Natal Native Force, a force that lacked both battle experience and proper equipment to fight with. Pulleine had a better chance of defending Isandhlwana if he withdrew his troops closer together to form a half circle, with Isandhlwana Mount at their backs. Once the Zulus attacked in their horned formation, it was a matter of time before the British soldier would have been overrun. They were outnumbered twenty to one in the defense of Isandhlwana. The British soldier at Isandhlwana fought with great courage in overwhelming odds. As the ammunition ran out the British regulars had no choice but to fix bayonets and fight the Zulu in hand to hand combat. The British suffered heavy losses in the massacre. By the time the battle had ended 1,300 soldiers lost their lives and the 1st Battalion of the 24th Regiment lost all of its officers in the stand at Isandhlwana. Three soldiers were awarded the Victoria Cross for acts of bravery in battle."

Cap, Spiderman and Superman are fictional embodiements fo this spirit.

You miss point and fail to understand the need for such fictional figures.

Who are the embodiment of ideals like "Truth and Justice"

Originally posted by Weyoun
No I think you're a little lost in the Battle of Britain the Odds were 3:1

The point is a symbolic one of courage and sacrifice against overwhelming odds. Myriad cultural references stem from this concept David and Goliath, The battl of Thermopylae which although lost illustrates the concept excellently.

The SS Stephen Hopkins is another example it's story

"Early on the morning of September 27, 1942 two German raiders suddenly appeared out of the morning mist to attack the SS Stephen Hopkins. Heavy guns of one raider pounded her hull, and machine gun fire from the other sprayed her decks at close quarters. The lightly armed merchantman exchanged shot for shot with the enemy, placing thirty-five shells into the water line of one of the raiders until its crew was forced to abandon their sinking ship. The gun commander was mortally wounded early in the action, and all of the gun crew were killed or wounded when an enemy shell exploded the magazine of their gun. At the explosion, Edwin O'Hara ran aft and single-handed served and fired the damaged gun with five live shells remaining in the ready box, scoring direct hits near the water line of the second raider setting it on fire. O'Hara was mortally wounded in this action. With boilers blown up, engines destroyed, masts shot away, and ablaze from stem to stern, the gallant merchantman finally went under carrying O'Hara and several of his fighting shipmates with her. [The survivors were rescued after 31 days in a lifeboat.]

The stark courage of her crew in their heroic stand against overpowering odds caused her name to be perpetuated as a Gallant Ship."

another example of this concept - January 22nd, 1879

"The garrison at Isandhlwana was a disaster waiting to happen. The garrison had inadequate numbers to fend off a massive Zulu attack. Lord Chelmsford was the commander of the British troops in the region. His military philosophy on the Zulus was that they would avoid an open battle with British regular troops. The book Anglo Zulu War states that Lord Chelmsford’s belief was that he did not have to worry about a Zulu attack. From his own experience, while serving in Africa, Lord Chelmsford learned that African armies want to avoid an open field battle against regular British soldiers. His concern was that they would avoid a battle by out maneuvering his units by crossing the Mzinyathi Valley downstream of Rorke’s Drift to invade Natal. Therefore, Lord Chelmsford decided to split his forces and leave half his troops at Isandhlwana. With a smaller number of troops stationed at the garrison, many holes existed in the all around defense if a Zulu attack ever came. Rupert Furneaux records in his book that the defense line at Isandhlwana stretched 3,000 yards in total distance. There were a number of weak points in the line; one was the 1,000 yard gap between Pope and Durnford. As well, there was a gap that stretched 1,000 yards in front of the tents and wagons, and below the slope near Isandhlwana Mount. The other weak point was in the northeast corner. The job of defending the spot was given to the Natal Native Force, a force that lacked both battle experience and proper equipment to fight with. Pulleine had a better chance of defending Isandhlwana if he withdrew his troops closer together to form a half circle, with Isandhlwana Mount at their backs. Once the Zulus attacked in their horned formation, it was a matter of time before the British soldier would have been overrun. They were outnumbered twenty to one in the defense of Isandhlwana. The British soldier at Isandhlwana fought with great courage in overwhelming odds. As the ammunition ran out the British regulars had no choice but to fix bayonets and fight the Zulu in hand to hand combat. The British suffered heavy losses in the massacre. By the time the battle had ended 1,300 soldiers lost their lives and the 1st Battalion of the 24th Regiment lost all of its officers in the stand at Isandhlwana. Three soldiers were awarded the Victoria Cross for acts of bravery in battle."

Cap, Spiderman and Superman are fictional embodiements fo this spirit.

You miss point and fail to understand the need for such fictional figures.

Who are the embodiment of ideals like "Truth and Justice"


I'm sorry, but real life has nothing to do with comics, or else Cap wouldn't be beating 75% of people he does.

So if I wear a Union Jack, get a shield, will my way, I can beat Mike Tyson or someone? I don't really think so. Your missing the whole Logic of Cap shouldn't beat most of who he beats, they are x10 superior and because he wants to win, he shouldn't win.

Originally posted by Weyoun
A Vs. B = C ❌ It's not that easy when talking about those fighting for an ideal.

B 10/10. Don't try to insult me because you don't comprehend logic. As much as I want, I can't beat someone x10 superior to me. Neither should Cap, or it is P-I-S.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
Strategy shouldn't do much in a fist fight or when they are fighting,

Why not???

Originally posted by Ichigo66666

realistically, speedblitz, dead cap.

Who is speedblitzing cap, Quicksilver?

Originally posted by Ichigo66666

I was talking about Namor V Wolv=Cap V Iron Man.

Oh.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666

He shouldn't beat AM because there is nothing he can do to hurt him. Without PIS and CIS, AM is unbeatable by anyone Cap Level.

Well you're not dumb but do you have extremely high intelligence? If you had extremely high intelligence and you were enhanced human you think its impossible for Cap to find a way of beating AM? In fact i can think of one way now. If AM knew that cap was going to hit him with his shield what would he do? AM would try to absorb it, what would happen if Cap pretended he was going to hit him with his shield an instead punched him. AM turn back into human form and then Cap would knock him out.