Respect the Phoenix

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What is it she applies her power to which results in an alteration of the events of 616? The patient, the glowing disc in her hand she previously materialized within “the hospital” to treat by growing it a new future. A future she grew by altering Cyclops response.

I concede to part of this,

you deserve your credit, I'm a true debater ... you won Part of the mountain of great discussions this issue produced.

(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe)

Jean did hold a Universe in her hands and did Heal it.

The bio doesn't say she "grew it a new future" though...

Jean made Scott Change his mind and the Future (Here Comes Tomorrow) never took place, that's how Jean Healed the Universe according to the Official Bio,

and Grant Morrison right here :

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The universe she materialized for treatment was 616. Noone can doubt that.

But I won this Part old friend,

"Here Comes Tomorrow" did NOT take place on Earth 616:

Here Comes Tomorrow, took place on Earth-15104,

an Alternate Reality/Universe that diverged from 616,

like ALL "What If" Universes/Realities

Thus, the "Badly Wounded Orphan" Universe is NOT 616 ... but 15104. 🙂

note: (my source)

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe

Alternate Universes 2005

Here Comes Tomorrow bio

We both won. 😛

Originally posted by Mr Master
I concede to part of this,

you deserve your credit, I'm a true debater ... you won Part of the mountain of great discussions this issue produced.

(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe)

Jean did hold a Universe in her hands and did Heal it.

Im happy to see you've finally seen sense. 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master
The bio doesn't say she "grew it a new future" though...

Jean made Scott Change his mind and the Future (Here Comes Tomorrow) never took place, that's how Jean Healed the Universe according to the Official Bio,

and Grant Morrison right here :

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

The bio doesnt need to say the words "grew a new future" for that to have been the case on panel. Wording something different is irrelevant when the words used to describe the event have the same meaning.

As shown on panel Jean amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future from the universe thereby leaving reality without a future. Jean rectified this by altering events (i.e Scotts reaction to Emma) thereby resulting in a new future. One to replace the amputated HCT future. By doing so Jean "grew" reality a new future as it were. You have disproved not a thing.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But I won this Part old friend,

"Here Comes Tomorrow" did NOT take place on Earth 616:

Here Comes Tomorrow, took place on Earth-15104,

The HCT was the future of 616. It wasnt a separate reality until Jean amputated it. If you look at the above scan it references the events of 616 and then refers to the events which lead to this future.

Thank you for providing me with evidence to prove my point. If you read the bio you'll see that by changing events within the reality in her hand, she made sure that Cyclops of 616 responded to Emma differently:

If the reality in her hand wasnt 616 then how was she altering 616 events by altering events within that reality in her hand? 😕

It says that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality? 😕

The Here Comes Tomorrow arc was the apocalyptic future of 616. Jean amputated that future from 616. She materialized 616 in her hand and then she healed the universe she had wounded via the amputation, by altering the events of 616 (as actually stated) meaning that Cyclops of 616 never abandoned Emma and the School but instead stuck with her thereby making sure the Here Comes Tomorrow future never came about.

The Here Comes Tomorrow future became separate from 616 and thereby gained a new continuum designation when it was amputated and therefore separate from 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master
We both won. 😛

Not the case at all. 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The HCT was the future of 616. It wasnt a separate reality until Jean amputated it. If you look at the above scan it references the events of 616 and then refers to the events which lead to this future.

That's not what the Bio says, but I'll let you live.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thank you for providing me with evidence to prove my point. If you read the bio you'll see that by changing events within the reality in her hand, she made sure that Cyclops of 616 responded to Emma differently:

If the reality in her hand wasnt 616 then how was she altering 616 events by altering events within that reality in her hand?

GS,

come on, come on ...

ALL What IF Comic Books are Divergents of the 616 Reality.

(I know you know this)

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It says that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality?

"ensuring that at least ONE Apocalyptic Future would not come to Fruition"

Like I said, and like the purpose of the Bio,

it's a Divergent Timeline that now never even happened.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Here Comes Tomorrow arc was the apocalyptic future of 616. Jean amputated that future from 616. She materialized 616 in her hand and then she healed the universe she had wounded via the amputation, by altering the events of 616 (as actually stated) meaning that Cyclops of 616 never abandoned Emma and the School but instead stuck with her thereby making sure the Here Comes Tomorrow future never came about.

The Here Comes Tomorrow future became separate from 616 and thereby gained a new continuum designation when it was amputated and therefore separate from 616.

None of this is mentioned in the Bio,

it's there for all to read, but this is your place,

so as you wish.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not the case at all. 😬

😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's not what the Bio says, but I'll let you live.

GS,

come on, come on ...

ALL What IF Comic Books are Divergents of the 616 Reality.

(I know you know this)

Of course, but the difference is that the HCT future was 616s future until it was amputated forcefully by Jean. Thats when it became separate and gained its own designation. The alternate universes depicted in What Ifs are natural breaks from the main continuity, theyre not enforced by some outside cosmic force.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"ensuring that at least ONE Apocalyptic Future would not come to Fruition"

Like I said, and like the purpose of the Bio,

it's a Divergent Timeline that now never even happened.

It never happened as far as 616 is concerned but in terms of the Marvel multiverse it happened and was referenced by 616 Jean within 616.

Here Comes Tomorrow

"genetic obsolescences"

Endsong

Jean even says "Here comes tomorrow", refers to killing the bug people and once again "genetic obsolescences"

Originally posted by Mr Master
None of this is mentioned in the Bio,

it's there for all to read, but this is your place,

so as you wish.

😬

The bio mentions a streamlined version of the events, it cant and doesnt include every detail, it just gives a summary. As long as something occurs and is mentioned on panel and the bio doesnt contradict it then ommission from the bio doesnt equate to it not having happened. 🙁

Once again: If the reality in her hand wasnt 616 then how was she altering 616 events by altering events within that reality in her hand?

It says in your bio that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Of course, but the difference is that the HCT future was 616s future until it was amputated forcefully by Jean. Thats when it became separate and gained its own designation.

Actually Jean Amputated the Future in issue #154.

Here Comes Tomorrow began in issue #150.

Here Comes Tomorrow, took place on Earth-15104 and began in issue #150

So it couldn't have been Jean

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The alternate universes depicted in What Ifs are natural breaks from the main continuity, theyre not enforced by some outside cosmic force.

They were enforced by Grant Morrison who decided to place the Here Comes Tomorrow Arc 150 Years in the Future.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It never happened as far as 616 is concerned but in terms of the Marvel multiverse it happened and was referenced by 616 Jean within 616.
Here Comes Tomorrow
"genetic obsolescences"
Endsong
Jean even says "Here comes tomorrow", refers to killing the bug people and once again "genetic obsolescences"

This doesn't explain away why in yet another Official 2006 Bio it's called

Earth-15104

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

It even says Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ... NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

(obviously she did it in #154, Here Comes Tomorrow began on page 30 - in New-Xmen #150)

This is ONE of many possible Futures that could have Diverged from the 616 Reality, but thanks to Phoenix it will definitely never happen.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The bio mentions a streamlined version of the events, it cant and doesnt include every detail, it just gives a summary. As long as something occurs and is mentioned on panel and the bio doesnt contradict it then ommission from the bio doesnt equate to it not having happened.

Once again: If the reality in her hand wasnt 616 then how was she altering 616 events by altering events within that reality in her hand?

It says in your bio that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality?

Because the Reality in her hands was already Reality 15104,
it became that Reality the moment Scott set in motion the chain of events that led to Here Comes Tomorrow.

Jean dies on page 30 of New-Xmen #150

Page 31 of New-Xmen #150 - and 150 YEARS have passed.

Page 01 in New X-Men #151 - starts at 150 Years in the Future (NOW it's Alternate Reality 15104)

This is what lead 616 to Diverge into this Alternate Reality 15104

Page 19 in New X-Men #151 ... 150 Years Earlier on Earth 616

Scott decides to quit.

Phoenix intervenes by reaching into this moment 150 Years ago on 616 and changes Scott's mind.

"Live Scott"

In order to ensure that 616 would not Diverge into the Here Comes Tomorrow Future of Reality 15104

I'd like to know really what category does phoenix fit into? What abstract level is it?

Mr M. Theres one flaw to your logic. If the universe in her hand was not 616 then why in making changes to the past of this alleged alternate universe in her hand would she directly make changes to 616? 😕

The Phoenix of Here Comes Tomorrow is the same Jean of 616. During the HCT story arc the past of that reality shes in is referred to as her past, she acknowledges it as her past.Why would this be the case if the universe she was in was not 616? 😕

The HCT future is stated to have been set 150 years in the future of 616. You yourself admit that the HCT future is derived from 616 so surely by cutting off that future as it is stated happened, Jean is going to be left with the 616 reality as we know it?😕

The handbook stating that the future 15104 started in issue 150 of New X-men doesnt disprove my point at all. Thats true, thats when we as readers first saw this alternate future. It is an alternate future because it is no longer connected to 616 the core reality, it is no longer the future of the 616 timeline. Just like how the AOA reality was what 616 turned into after Legions tampering with the past, but by going back in time to when said reality was still 616 as we knew it and altering events Bishop made that AOA reality diverge into a separate continuity and set 616 back on track again. AOA wasnt a separate reality until the events which brought it about were altered and thats when it gained its different continuum designation. Before then it was what 616 had become which is precisely why the M'kraan crystal went crazy because events werent the same and Jean wasnt around to heal the crystal as she did as events were meant to occur in the core reality.

Back to HCT

616 went apocalyptic in the 150 years after Jeans death.

Jean eventually amputated this 150 years of future, leaving behind the 616 as we know it in the present.

This action wounded the universe. Jean was advised that in order to heal this wound she would have to make a better future grow.

Jean materialized the universe within the crystal and she was later told that if she wanted to grow a new future to replace the one she had cut away (HCT future) she would have to symbolically water it with her hearts blood. I.e urge Cyclops to move on without her, thus altering the events which lead 616 into the HCT future thus making sure it never took place.

As the handbook states Jean healed the universe by doing this symbolic watering with her hearts blood altering the past of 616.

HCT was just the future of 616 that Jean cut off. It was a part of 616 up until that point. Jean cut it off, it then got its own continuum designation.

Originally posted by Ethereal
I'd like to know really what category does phoenix fit into? What abstract level is it?

The Phoenix isnt an abstract. Its a sentient force of nature. Its beyond the absracts in terms of power and role.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mr M. Theres one flaw to your logic. If the universe in her hand was not 616 then why in making changes to the past of this alleged alternate universe in her hand would she directly make changes to 616?

It's simple friend,

Here Comes Tomorrow is a Divergent Timeline, that's it.

A possible Future for the 616 Reality, but it was Never a Certain Future.

That Universe took form because of Scotts decision 150 Years Ago, Grant Morrison's way of getting away with the story.

No wonder there wasn't a single extra cameo from a character Other than X-Men related, It's a Global epidemic and No one else know about it?

This story (Here Comes Tomorrow) was enclosed in this Alternate Reality 15104 the second this story began 150 Years in the Future.

(I mean What? ... Only the X-Men exist in the Future of 616?) 😂

See, that's silly.

So, by the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,

the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.

the Future of,

Earth-15104

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)

Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ... NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

Ok that's all, cool debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Phoenix isnt an abstract. Its a sentient force of nature. Its beyond the absracts in terms of power and role.

Well..this is what I took from a Q&A bio/description from marvel:

"Was the Phoenix Force born in a previous universe?

"Yes and no, the Phoenix Force is one of the few cosmic entities born from a previous universe. When it was born exactly is unknown, but it is known that it dies with the previous universe and is reborn in the next universe as a new creature with the memories of its predecessor."

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's simple friend,

Here Comes Tomorrow is a Divergent Timeline, that's it.

A possible Future for the 616 Reality, but it was Never a Certain Future.

That Universe took form because of Scotts decision 150 Years Ago, Grant Morrison's way of getting away with the story.

No wonder there wasn't a single extra cameo from a character Other than X-Men related, It's a [B]Global epidemic and No one else know about it?

This story (Here Comes Tomorrow) was enclosed in this Alternate Reality 15104 the second this story began 150 Years in the Future.

(I mean What? ... Only the X-Men exist in the Future of 616?) 😂

See, that's silly.

So, by the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,

the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.

the Future of,

Earth-15104

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)

Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ... NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

Ok that's all, cool debate. [/B]

Reality 15104 was illustrated to be derived from 616. It came about from Cyclops reaction in 616 and was what 616 became 150 years after Cyclops decision.

It wasnt a divergent timeline otherwise 616 would have existed at the same time as this reality and would have run alongside. That wasnt the case. 616 as we know it didnt exist, it had become this future.

If it was a divergent timeline that became its own reality altering the events of 616 would have no affect on this alleged other reality. By altering the past of 616 do you change the history of What Ifs? ❌

The reality Jean had in her hand was 616. As stated Jean amputated the HCT future, therefore she was left with 616 as we know it. By amputating the HCT future it was no longer THE future but A future that thanks to Jeans actions would no longer come to pass. That was the point it gained its own continuum designation.

Theres just too much evidence against your opinion. All you have is a handbook giving a different reality reference (15104) however that is insufficient as it is right to have a different reference as it is no longer a part of 616 and we saw that occur on panel. Hnadbooks complement on panel accounts, they are not substitutes for them. Your handbook reference is explained away on panel.

It has been good debating with you, but its got to the point where youre not debating anymore, youre merely ignoring my questions and just reposting your argument.

I will post my questions again:

It says in your bio that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality?

If the universe in her hand was not 616 then why in making changes to the past of this alleged alternate universe in her hand would she directly make changes to 616?

The Phoenix of Here Comes Tomorrow is the same Jean of 616. During the HCT story arc the past of that reality shes in is referred to as her past, she acknowledges it as her past.Why would this be the case if the universe she was in was NOT 616?

The HCT future is stated to have been set 150 years in the future of 616. You yourself admit that the HCT future is derived from 616 so surely by cutting off that future as it is stated happened, Jean is going to be left with the 616 reality as we know it?

If you do NOT answer my questions then i will not take kindly to you posting in this thread again and i will take the necessary actions.

If you do however answer my questions (with reference to conclusive on panel evidence) then thank you very much and i will gladly respond to you.

... I don't know... I've looked at the evidence, but it seems obvious to me that the universe WAS 616 but was no longer connected, since it was amputated. Thus, it became 15104 because it was disconnected from the prime reality (616).

Originally posted by King Kandy
... I don't know... I've looked at the evidence, but it seems obvious to me that the universe WAS 616 but was no longer connected, since it was amputated. Thus, it became 15104 because it was disconnected from the prime reality (616).

Exactly the way i saw it. 😉

Originally posted by King Kandy
... I don't know... I've looked at the evidence, but it seems obvious to me that the universe WAS 616 but was no longer connected, since it was amputated. Thus, it became 15104 because it was disconnected from the prime reality (616).

The Future of 616,

where only the X-Men exist.

If it was 616 until it was disconnected, and then it became 15104,

what happened to the original 616?

It was magically Re-Created?

Jean Amputated the Future in issue #154.

Here Comes Tomorrow began in issue #150.

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Here Comes Tomorrow bio)

Here Comes Tomorrow, took place on Earth-15104 and began in issue #150

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

It clearly says "Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104" ...

NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Future of 616,

where only the X-Men exist.

If it was 616 until it was disconnected, and then it became 15104,

what happened to the original 616?

It was magically Re-Created?

Your argument comes from not understanding the concepts. It was just a future, 150 years of it to be precise, it was not an entire timeline, just a snippet of one derived from 616. It was 616's future an apocalyptic one which resulted from the Cyclops and Emma incident in 616. When Jean amputated that future, that 150 years of timeline, what was left, what she materialized in the white hot room, was 616.

The future she amputated, no longer having anything to do with 616

1) because Jean physically amputated it

2) because Jean altered the 616 event which spawned it thereby making that future non-existent

then gained its own continuum designation, reality 15104

Originally posted by Mr Master
Jean Amputated the Future in issue #154.

Here Comes Tomorrow began in issue #150.

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Here Comes Tomorrow bio)

Here Comes Tomorrow, took place on Earth-15104 and began in issue #150

Here Comes Tomorrow did debut in issue 150. Whats your point? What exactly do you think that proves? Thats correct. The debut of reality 15104 was in issue 150, however as shown on panel, it wasnt amputated from reality until 154 and it wasnt replaced with another future (by Jeans past alteration) until said issue as well. Up until that point it derived from 616 and the handbook entry illustrates that point by talking of how 15104 was replaced by Jean altering the past of 616.

If 15104 wasnt just the future of 616, it was a divergent reality, not only would altering the past of 616 NOT have an affect on it, but it would have existed alongside the 616 reality. It didnt. It existed instead of it. Thats the very reason Jean cut it off and then changed 616s events to ensure that future didnt come about.

Originally posted by Mr Master
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104

(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)

It clearly says "Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104" ...

NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.

Its "ONE future" because Jean amputated it making it just ONE future instead of THE future of 616 that it previously was.

You've confused yourself. Once again HCT was a segment of the timeline. It was just 150 years of future stemming from that Cyclops/Emma event of 616. It was the future of 616 until Jean amputated it from 616 and before she changed events making it so it never existed. Thats when it became reality 15104. The reference is just to distinguish it.

Its all explained away and illustrated on panel and even in that bio which perfectly depicts it to have been a previous future of 616. Look at how your queries are easily answered and then look at how you cant explain away mine with your interpretation. Does that not tell you something?

Youre ignoring my questions and continually posting the same argument which ive handled. Thats no better than spamming.

Unless you are going to respond to my previous questions do NOT post in my thread. This is the last warning. 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you have any querys or you disagree with the info presented, then please make them in a thread of your own making. This thread is [B]ONLY for scans relating to Phoenixes origins, character testimonies on the Force and positive feats for the Force.

Any negative or derogatory posts regarding Phoenix will be reported immediately 🙂

With all of that out of the way, lets get the ball rolling. [/B]

Of course, I do

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre ignoring my questions and continually posting the same argument which ive handled. Thats no better than spamming.

do NOT post in my thread. This is the last warning.

What's the point of continuing this, I see it the way I see it, and you see it another way,

Whatever,

as you wish.