For Advent (instead of typing "Originally posted by"😉
Hey. Didn't we already have this discussion?
But I felt that I failed during that mission, I need to attempt this argument again.
Ah, the memories. They flow back like water in times like these.
😉
Anti-fanboyism? That's not even a bad thing, you dolt. As a matter of fact, it's one of the greatest qualities one could possess on these types of forums.
Well in the hands of Nebaris, you do get some crazy anti shit... 😕
Talking about fanboyism.
Hey now, just because I am one of the only few people who doesn't believe Dooku can WTFpwn Kenobi doesn't allow you to go all Ad Hominem on me 😈 .....
In all seriousness, Obi-Wan hasn't displayed anything in terms of the Force to even contend with Count Dooku, especially on other Force using beings. We have several demonstrations on Count Dooku's dominance over said beings, but Obi-Wan's résumé seems to be severely lacking.
How so? Dooku is very impressive among all Force wielders. By putting any PT character (other than Sidious, Yoda, and Mace) against Tyrannus won't make them look good.
By the way, how can the "bare minimum" be sixty seconds, but it's definitely going to be more according to you? That's a contradiction in itself.
What the hell? I said that at the very least, Dooku kills Kenobi in 60 seconds. However, I said that it'll likely be a higher number than that.
What you fail to consider is that Obi-Wan's tactics were also at use during that point, and Count Dooku would thusly know what Obi-Wan was doing, so what reasons would he have to dilly-dally around if he already knows that Obi-Wan's lightsaber abilities aren't going to be so easily overcame?
The novelization points out that Dooku doesn't even think to consider that Anakin and Obi-Wan might have mastered different forms or have grown stronger in the use of the lightsaber until the duo finally cuts the shit. Obi-Wan knows that Dooku is his superior in the lightsaber and the Force. So what will he do? He'll go into an offensive/defensive medium (probably using either Shii-Cho or Ataru) on Dooku like in AOTC and waste some time, seeing how he'll be more skilled and all. When Kenobi gets desperate, he will then switch into his Soresu mode.
That is, if we're operating under the premise that the combatants had fought each other previously (as that's what you seem to be suggesting).
Is there a problem with this?
According to the RotS novelization, he already tried this, and it was twenty seconds into the fight if you correlate to what the novel says to the movie (this isn't disregarding the ten seconds of dialogue that happened in between, by the way). As soon as Count Dooku comes to the realization that his attacks are being negated by Obi-Wan's Soresu (and that he might be beaten), he Force pushes him halfway across the room.
Well yes, because the duo decided to cut this entire weakling shit and goes for Dooku. When Dooku realizes the two "clowns" actually possess the ability to kill him, he gets desperate and throws Kenobi to the Super Battle Droids.
Now, the difference here would be that Count Dooku doesn't actually need to worry about another opponent, whereas at the time, he was desperate, and had to relieve Kenobi of combat as soon as possible, so I see no reason as to why Count Dooku wouldn't just repeat his actions in RotS to take out Obi-Wan, or some other devastating technique that he possesses.
D'abord, Kenobi will first go AOTC on Tyrannus, and the two will play around with each other. After this, Kenobi Jumps away and switches into his Soresu style. Tyrannus will engage him in this with his toying Makashi skill and realize that the pathetic little "clown" has tricked him. During this time, if possible, Kenobi will do a Force Push or something of the sort. Now, even though it'll hardly have any effect, again it is for buying time. When Dooku decides to go all out on Obi-Wan, he’ll run over with his uber Makashi might and trump card Force and throw Obi-Wan dead (that is unless Mace saves Kenobi).
What "skill" are you referring to? The "skill" that had him gliding across the floor by "the slightest whipcrack of [Dooku's] power"? Or were you talking about the "skill" that got him flung around like a monkey flings shit? If you take a direct comparison of power, you'd find that Obi-Wan is the inferior by a large margin. We know that in Star Wars, this usually means their defenses won't serve much use (because he can break them by superior force). Likewise, their offensive arsenal wouldn't be so injurious.
First, that "slightest whipcrack" we see in the movies doesn't equate to Dooku being >>>>>>> in the Force over Obi-Wan. Kenobi's defense made himself fly only several yards away to the other side of the stairwell.
Again, Kenobi can use the Force to buy him some time. Even though one of his Force Pushes may only knock Tyrannus like ten feet away, Obi-Wan will continue wasting time, like engaging Dooku right after a Push, etc etc.
For reference, the shrouded figure with a red circle around him is Obi-Wan Kenobi, just in case anyone might miss that.You should notice that he moves the starfighter a few yards at most. It becomes considerably less impressive because of such, and also since Ki-Adi-Mundi replicated the feat to a higher degree. But, regardless, how is that going to save him? He's dealing with an opponent who's prowess in the Force surpasses his own by a large measure.
So what? Kenobi switches into Soresu and battles Dooku's Makashi and then catches Tyrannus off guard with a Force Push, or some Force attack. It doesn't matter if he's much weaker than Dooku Force-wise, the fact is Dooku is susceptible to it and he'll be thrown some yards away.
We could bring my marvelous packet of feats into the equation, but then again, this is a match, and not feat wars. What's Obi-Wan going to do to Count Dooku? Lift a fighter craft three feet? Oh yeah, he's "skilled" when likened to Count Dooku. :gay smiley:
The same Kenobi who was able to Push Grievous (who dodges Force attacks) fifty feet away and like fifty feet in the air. You are right, Obi-Wan isn't on par with Dooku Force-wise, but he'll still use it on Tyrannus...homophobe.
We've seen the effects of Count Dooku lightning when used on Sora Bulq, who is no weak shit himself, and it knocked it him unconscious. Additionally, we've seen him bring down Asajj Ventress, writhing in pain, with a tap of his finger. And then, of course, "with the slightest whipcrack of that power" he threw Obi-Wan across the way, and then later made the scene where he takes out Obi-Wan look like it was generated using ragdoll physics, FFS!
Did I say that Kenobi > Dooku Force-wise? HELL NO! If Dooku wanted to go all fvcking crazy on Obi-Wan right away, he could probably take out Obi-Wan in like 15 seconds. But he wouldn’t, because that's the nature of Dooku.
Part II:
Didn't you say Obi-Wan was intelligent?
Wow Officer Obvious, why don't you go back and read and find out....
I laughed out loud at this, and the following statement you made. I'd like to see Obi-Wan do jack shit with the Force. I doubt he'd be able to make one Force push before getting suffocated to death.
Wow, this is simply retarded. Kenobi engages Dooku with Soresu and pulls of an unsuspecting Force attack, what the hell will Tyrannus do about it? OMG, #3 |>(_)|_|_5 4 |=02{3 5#13|_}!!!!1111
If you are playing on what character's typically do (as you assume Count Dooku will "toy" with Obi-Wan), then I'd tell you that Obi-Wan isn't known to use the Force against far stronger opponents.
WTF?
Even if we were to assume he does attempt a Force push (his only offensive power), why wouldn't Count Dooku counterattack, and begin beating him like a redheaded step child? We know he can; the same cannot be said for Obi-Wan.
How? Kenobi catches him off-guard, like how Dooku caught Kenobi off guard with the Kick-Choke-Throw, Tyrannus will be helpless against it (unless #3 |>(_)|_|_5 4 |=02{3 5#13|_}!!!!1111 😂 ) and thus be thrown several feet away.
So basically, despite the fact that Obi-Wan's Force prowess pales in comparison, you would have him attempt to launch a Force push on an immensely more powerful opponent, and then claim that its effect will buy him a "huge" (not decent) amount of time? Oh, yeah, if we stripped Count Dooku of his Force powers, and then contained him in some type of contraption that would immobilize him it'd work. Otherwise, even if I were to presuppose that by some stroke of luck Obi-Wan hit him, he'd get right back up, and kick the ever living shit out of Kenobi.
Once Tyrannus faces the brunt of Kenobi's Force attacks, he will proceed to go all out on Obi-Wan. But why the fvck wouldn't Kenobi take advantage of a successful attack and engage Dooku's all out Makashi. The two duel and then Tyrannus finishes off with a successful combo attack (like Kick-Choke-Throw).
I love how noobs would assert one thing as being "****ing ridiculous", but when it comes down to their own arguments, they're ****ing ridiculous
OMG, what a wonderful jab Advent, you should be given the Oscar for the Best Insult......gosh you are pathetic at times.....
Yes, and we saw exactly what happened in that situation, except this time, Count Dooku won't be hard pressed to utilize the Force. If he goes all out, it'll take less than twenty seconds to kill Kenobi. And that's being generous.
I concur, when Dooku goes all out, it'll take about 15-20 seconds to kill Kenobi. But seeing how arrogant Dooku is and how intelligent Kenobi is, we have to add 20 to the time amount before Tyrannus went all out.
Exactly, and he can do such in a short amount of time. I don't see where you can even come up with a "Kenobi lasts for x minutes!", and hope that anyone will believe some random figure you tossed out is accurate.
Except it isn't Random Number Out of My Ass!!!
Time interpretation of the duel:
The AOTC Duel between Tyrannus vs. Obi-Wan lasted 38 seconds. Now seeing that Kenobi will be more intelligent and more skilled, he will probably last for about 22 seconds longer (equalling a minute) before switching to Soresu.
He then duels with Dooku, and Dooku starts to realize that this clown can "possibly" defeat him (extra time again: 15 seconds).
Kenobi launches a successfull Force Push, knocking Dooku several feet away. Obi-Wan then rushes over and attacks Tyrannus. Dooku gets up and two duel a little bit more (extra time {from Force attack}: 15 seconds).
Tyrannus has had enough of Obi-Wan and finishes him off with a combo (extra time: 10 seconds).
So taking my total number, we'll get Kenobi's chances of survival anywhere from 100 seconds to 120 seconds, or 1 minute 40 seconds to 2 minutes.
Your assumption is that Obi-Wan "Got Pwned" Kenobi will be feigning his form for a considerable amount of time, and somehow hold off Darth Tyranus with the Force (lmao). That's not correct by a long shot. If Obi-Wan kept up his ploy for more than what he did, I see no reason for Count Dooku not to put him on his ass a la Attack of the Clones.
Like in AOTC, Kenobi will almost get put on his ass by Dooku but then switches to Soresu when he gets desperate and needs to try to eliminate Tyrannus.
In the Force? Yes, he can. Easily, as well. In an overall battle like this, of course he can't decimate him in two seconds, because Obi-Wan is a brilliant lightsaber master, but that won't contain Count Dooku for long given the two of them already went all out, and Obi-Wan got dropped like he was hot.
Yes, if Dooku went all out with the Force in the beginning of the duel, Kenobi will be gone within 15-20 seconds.
In an alternate universe, perhaps, but for the rest of the world that lives in reality, yet still debates on fantasy, it seems probable that Obi-Wan won't last more than a forty seconds, and that's being extremely kind, because: a) there's no reason for Obi-Wan to keep up his trick for that much longer than he did originally, b) Count Dooku can take him out with the Force in a short amount of time, and c) their fight in RotS lasted fifty seconds, and that was with Anakin backing him up (and including the twenty plus seconds of dialogue, and time Obi-Wan was out of the fight).
I provided my time reasoning.
No, it wouldn't be "a lot longer".
You're dictating what Obi-Wan will do, "FORCE PUSH LOL!", "HE'LL ATTACK IN FORM Y FOR X AMOUNT OF SECONDS", "COUNT DOOKU WILL TOY WITH HIM FOR X AMOUNT OF SECONDS". This isn't a storybook versus forum, or a "Choose Your Own Adventure", son™ (trademarked since fools want to be like me).
I really don't see any reason to argue if that's the route you're going to take due to the fact I could do the exact same thing, and come up with my aforesaid time (40 seconds).
For example,
Obi-Wan uses a ploy form - 20 seconds.
Obi-Wan switches to Soresu, and Count Dooku realizes Kenobi's defenses are too strong - 15 seconds.
The duel continues, and Obi-Wan gets tossed like a ragdoll again - 5 seconds.
All in all, it's rather ridiculous. Now, don't take that as "Oh, well u can't defeat my pointz!', because that's not the case. Even for a debater of my level (I'm not trying to boast), I find myself rather dumbfounded at this type of argument. You want me to somehow address, and counter your points, but I won't be able to do so unless I impose upon the characters' actions myself.
As for some miscellaneous points.
Hey now, just because I am one of the only few people who doesn't believe Dooku can WTFpwn Kenobi doesn't allow you to go all Ad Hominem on me
All I can say is please don't play pseudointellectual with me, and bring that shit into this conversation. I find it rather annoying, especially when even calling one "pathetic" is, by (conversational) definition's standards, ad hominem (which would turn into double standards on your part).
What the hell? I said that at the very least, Dooku kills Kenobi in 60 seconds. However, I said that it'll likely be a higher number than that.
No, that's not what you said. Resorting to lying will not save your "argument". It's a good thing we have an account of everything users type, otherwise I couldn't call people out on such things. For someone who's "vying for a 4.0" GPA (in your dreams, pal), you should know that "definitely" means.
definitely, adj.
Indisputable; certain, or clearly defined; explicitly precise.
By you putting "definitely more" in parentheses, that means that it will be longer than your former time of one minute. You didn't say it'll be "likely", you said "definitely". Please try not to retract on your words, because it definitely makes you look foolish. If you plan on debating with me, pick your words carefully, as when it comes to debating, I don't do such "casually".
Nice try, though.
The novelization points out that Dooku doesn't even think to consider that Anakin and Obi-Wan might have mastered different forms or have grown stronger in the use of the lightsaber until the duo finally cuts the shit.
Funny, I'm reading the novelization as we speak, and there's no mention of him believing that they hadn't grown stronger. He supposes that their forms would be more well suited against a large number of opponents.
But, that's besides the point, what you said is completely irrelevant. If we are going to assume that they've fought before, then what I said still stands, because the RotS novelization was written in terms of the present. Since we're supposing that this is the future, Count Dooku already knows that Obi-Wan mastered Soresu.
Obi-Wan knows that Dooku is his superior in the lightsaber and the Force. So what will he do? He'll go into an offensive/defensive medium (probably using either Shii-Cho or Ataru) on Dooku like in AOTC and waste some time, seeing how he'll be more skilled and all.
The difference here is that, among other things, he cannot keep that up for as long as you are supposing in this specific situation. You'll note that in RotS, he tries what you claim he'll do (in other words, dictate his actions) during the fight, and then switches to Soresu twenty seconds into the fight. Now, that's even less if you consider the ten seconds of dialogue that happened in between.
Now, if Kenobi wants to dawdle around he can do so. The problem herein lies is that, as we witnessed in AotC, Count Dooku may initially mess around with his opponents, but he doesn't do so forever. In this scenario, if you are saying Obi-Wan is going to be more adequate at the usage of such a form, then I see no reason as to why Dooku wouldn't eliminate him sooner than he did in AotC. We already know that he can do such whenever he pleases, Obi-Wan's not adept at using Ataru or Shii-Cho, so it really won't matter. His skill level with those forms is a joke when compared to Dooku's fencing, as even he implies in his thoughts.
Your assertion that he'll "last longer because he's more skilled" is wrong, as well, because it doesn't matter. Dooku could take out Obi-Wan if he was using anything other than his formal form of Soresu very easily.
Is there a problem with this?
Did I say there was? No, I don't recall me doing such, there is a problem, however, for Obi-Wan's case if we do operate under such. That would be that his tactics would be comprised because Dooku already knows that he's feigning his form, since he has witnessed this in the RotS duel.
First, that "slightest whipcrack" we see in the movies doesn't equate to Dooku being >>>>>>> in the Force over Obi-Wan.
Yes, it does, actually. Of course, that's only if you possess a brain (an organ you appear to be missing). It proves his sheer dominance over Obi-Wan. Even when using a minuscule amount of power to execute the attack, he can toss Obi-Wan halfway across the floor.
OMG, what a wonderful jab Advent, you should be given the Oscar for the Best Insult
Ooh, how witty.
In all candor, that wasn't my typical type of insult where I would poke fun at eyesight, or some other sense. I was stating it as what I find idiotic. So, it wasn't meant as a direct insult.
By the way, if you're at least going to try to be cute, you should use something that actually exists instead of making something completely idiotic up. "BEST INSULT 4 OSCAR"? Really now.
gosh you are pathetic at times.
Coming from you, Napoleon, I'm not really offended in the least bit, after reviewing several of our previous encounters. Seriously, Kenobl, I'm not pathetic, nor is anything I say. You know this, I know this, and the entire forum knows this.
The same Kenobi who was able to Push Grievous (who dodges Force attacks) fifty feet away and like fifty feet in the air.
Originally posted by Advent
I guess Shaak Ti is hot shit because she force pushed him through an entire wall! Oh, wait. No, she sucks figurative balls to Count Dooku and would also be pwned by him easily."Her Twi'lek Master had once explained to her that sensitivity and fine-tuning came with time. "As a Padawan," he had said, "I could push boulders around with ease, but seeds were next to impossible." (Shadow Hunter, Chp. 23)
A padawan Annon Bondara was able to move boulders around without much difficulty. So, I really don't see what's impressive about flinging a non-Force using being the length a master Kenobi did.
It's not that much of an "impressive task" given that General Grievous can't a) defend against force attacks and b) can't predict them. As Escape has already pointed out, CW Grievous =/= RotS Grievous. Furthermore, if you add to the fact that Obi-Wan and Grievous were engaged in a saberlock, and thusly deadlocked, its value as a feat becomes considerably less impressive (if we were to assume he can dodge attacks).
Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Isn't Yoda the last Jedi until he meet Luke in TESB?
What?
No, Yoda's not the only Jedi around until Luke, if that's what you're asking. I mean, Ben Kenobi is in ANH; although, I really haven't a clue of what you're trying to ask.
And, I just caught a slight mistake in my post:
Originally posted by Advent
That would be that his tactics would be *compromised
Fixed.