Originally posted by manorastroman
why?
The comments and opinions people hold about them doesn't tally with what I see as their actual quality.
He is often compared to Shakespeare; that says it all.
Joni Mitchell is a supremely more able lyricist, but she receives nowhere near the recognition that Dylan has been fortunate to have bestowed upon him.
AC: so if someone asks you whether you listen to music, you say: not just music, i also listen to vocals and production values!
VVD: don't take this the wrong way, but that doesn't entirely satisfy me. being compared to shakespeare is overboard, but that mostly means joni mitchell is underrated, not necessarily that dylan is overrated.
Originally posted by manorastroman
AC: so if someone asks you whether you listen to music, you say: not just music, i also listen to vocals and production values!VVD: don't take this the wrong way, but that doesn't entirely satisfy me. being compared to shakespeare is overboard, but that mostly means joni mitchell is underrated, not necessarily that dylan is overrated.
No, look, Dylan being compared to Shakespeare doesn't involve Mitchell...that is just an overratation out of incredible ignorance. Could Bill ever write genius words like Dylan did with "My Back Pages". Rhetorical question. Answer: No! Joke? Possibly.
I like Joni Mitchell.
Originally posted by manorastroman
AC: so if someone asks you whether you listen to music, you say: not just music, i also listen to vocals and production values!
No, why on Earth would that be necessary?
"Do you listen to music?" "Yes.".
VOCALS are music, LYRICS are not. Vocals are the voice, not the words the voice reads. They are different. Please recognise this before progressing further, because you're being silly.
-AC
Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually it is considered part of songwriting generally.
So? It doesn't matter to me what it's considered to be. Words don't make the sound, or the song, nor are they music. So they're not a part of the song structure, at all.
They're not part of the songwriting, they are an additional writing process that is then added to the song.
-AC
Originally posted by manorastroman
VVD: don't take this the wrong way, but that doesn't entirely satisfy me. being compared to shakespeare is overboard, but that mostly means joni mitchell is underrated, not necessarily that dylan is overrated.
Nothing to take the wrong way.
They aren't connected, as Bardock mentioned.
To call Dylan similar to Shakespeare is to overrate him. Hence, I feel he is overrated. Not everyone says it, but many people say it, publicly, and people with the forum and influence to say such things. It is not the only reason- I mainly work from my own critical analysis of his lyrics.
Also, yes, Joni is very underrated.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So? It doesn't matter to me what it's considered to be. Words don't make the sound, or the song, nor are they music. So they're not a part of the song structure, at all.They're not part of the songwriting, they are an additional writing process that is then added to the song.
-AC
They are part of the song, though.
And you don't have to accept the general concept, for all I care. But the thread is about that, and it is pretty clear that he wanted to put a special focus on lyrics. So, just saying, that you should probably talk about lyricsif you want to participate on topic. Can debate about anything you want though, just saying.
Originally posted by Bardock42
They are part of the song, though.And you don't have to accept the general concept, for all I care. But the thread is about that, and it is pretty clear that he wanted to put a special focus on lyrics. So, just saying, that you should probably talk about lyricsif you want to participate on topic. Can debate about anything you want though, just saying.
I'm aware of what he wanted, but it's stupid to ask who's the best songwriter and singer, by judging words that are neither audible nor music.
They aren't part of the songwriting process, is my point.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, why on Earth would that be necessary?"Do you listen to music?" "Yes.".
VOCALS are music, LYRICS are not. Vocals are the voice, not the words the voice reads. They are different. Please recognise this before progressing further, because you're being silly.
-AC
don't willfully misunderstand my point. and lyrics/vocals are ultimately inseperable. the words themselves have as much to do with the sound as the way they're sung. bartleby is a different word than insouciant, and would sound different regardless of the vocals.
lyrics are a total part of the songwriting process. for instance, bright eyes writes the lyrics first and then writes songs around them.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm aware of what he wanted, but it's stupid to ask who's the best songwriter and singer, by judging words that are neither audible nor music.They aren't part of the songwriting process, is my point.
-AC
Whch is a misusage of the word song though. Well, in my opinion...and most definitions opinion.
Originally posted by manorastroman
don't willfully misunderstand my point. and lyrics/vocals are ultimately inseperable. the words themselves have as much to do with the sound as the way they're sung. bartleby is a different word than insouciant, and would sound different regardless of the vocals.lyrics are a total part of the songwriting process. for instance, bright eyes writes the lyrics first and then writes songs around them.
Lyrics and vocals are entirely different, what are you on about?
The two can exist without each other. You write words on a page, they can be lyrics, you use your voice as extra instrumentation and it can be music. You put the two together and they work well, but they are not one and the same thing.
Such an idiotic point to follow up with, too. "They'd sound different regardless of the vocals.". Would they? How would they sound with nobody to say them? They wouldn't sound...any way would they? Why? Because they are just words, not music, not sonic presentation...words.
They become useful with a voice to say them, the voice doesn't become useful with lyrics, it can be used anyway.
A) Bright Eyes are shit.
B) So what? Them putting more priority on lyrical preference doesn't mean it's a part of the songwriting process, and you prove that yourself. "They write the lyrics first...AND THEN write the song (Separate) around them.".
They are totally different.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I wouldn't look at anybody with a pen and pad, writing words, and say "They're writing a song.".I'd see someone playing music, and say they are.
-AC
Interesting usage of the word writing, but well, that's you. If I'd see Morrissey writing down some lyrics I'd say, "Oh, working on a song".
Originally posted by Bardock42
No, he's be working on a song, seeing as lyrics would be part of the song.
He'd not actually be working on the song with a pen and pad, writing lyrics, at that moment.
He'd be specifically writing lyrics, not a song. Maybe lyrics that will in time, contribute to the song and be the addition that "finishes" it, but he wouldn't actually be writing the song, he'd be writing the lyrics.
If you mean, by writing the lyrics he would be collaborating with those writing a song to make the "complete" song, I see your point.
Writing lyrics is not writing music.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He'd not actually be working on the song with a pen and pad, writing lyrics, at that moment.He'd be specifically writing lyrics, not a song. Maybe lyrics that will in time, contribute to the song and be the addition that "finishes" it, but he wouldn't actually be writing the song, he'd be writing the lyrics.
If you mean, by writing the lyrics he would be collaborating with those writing a song to make the "complete" song, I see your point.
Writing lyrics is not writing music.
-AC
They are not music, but part of a song.